We have yet to see the kind of violence imposed by the fascists that ignited the liberal response in WWII. Liberals with guns right now is not the answer. I am a bit dismayed at the number of likes a post promoting counter-violence has received.
The republicans are making the point that we are hounding Trump for being an "existential thre…
We have yet to see the kind of violence imposed by the fascists that ignited the liberal response in WWII. Liberals with guns right now is not the answer. I am a bit dismayed at the number of likes a post promoting counter-violence has received.
The republicans are making the point that we are hounding Trump for being an "existential threat to democracy" when he is not. Too many people excuse his rhetoric saying he said crazy stuff in 2016 that he didn't do.
First, somebody somewhere needs to start hammering home the point that in 2016 no one expected him to win so he came into office without the infrastructure needed to put his notions into action.
This time it's different, and I don't think enough people realize it. Project 2025 is a blueprint containing multiple proposals that should be seen as a threat to our democratic institutions that have served us well for more than two hundred years.
The threats need to be spelled out in detail, not as broad stroke "existential threats to democracy." Stop talking about existential threats and spell them out.
You make such a fine point about institutions that have served us well for 200+ years. The arrogance, ignorance, and ultimately greed of educated and powerful Americans like the Republican SCOTUS, Judge Cannon, the GOP is vile. They really are evil and we have the right to fight back against violence and political oppression.
I'll say is again and again. Influencers need to spell out in detail how Trump threatens those institutions. in detail. Water safety is a good start. Do those undecided voters really want a political appointee instead of an expert implementing water regulations?
I do not read Travis and think "promotion of counter-violence", or tit-for-tat, or anything of the sort. I read Travis and think about the hyperbole that he's underlining and the lessons of history that he's pointing to.
Fascism was not put down in Germany and Italy by an internal immune response. It had its noggin stoved in by the USMC, RAF, the French resistance, and others who gave to topple it. Fanatical imperialism was not brought low in Japan by the men and women of Honshu, Shikoku, Kyushu, and Hokkaido. It was done in by the efforts of the United States Navy and Air Force, the scientists back home, Chinese resistance, and the raw power of economics. Outside forces came on planes and ships because internal correctives were too weak-willed to push hard against burgeoning evil.
The lesson of history is that evil in the hearts of fellow Man have to be fought with good and insight. The alternative is violence, and it should be an absolute last resort when it is all we desperately have left.
"I am a bit dismayed at the number of likes a post promoting counter-violence has received."
I'm not promoting counter-violence, only pointing to the *fact* that violent authoritarian movements of the past weren't put down by the temperance of liberalism. They were put down with overwhelming counter-violence. There's a *big* difference between making historical clarifications that are grounded in facts and "promoting" counter-violence. Promoting counter-violence would be telling people to gun up and start taking things into their own hands. That's not at all what I'm doing here.
I'm on your side, Travis, counter violence a this time would not be productive. I also stand by my earlier thoughts about "something really bad will result from Trump's reelection" and it could involve mass violence and destruction. It took 30+ million deaths, Europe and Japan in ruins for liberalism to be saved from evil in WW II. Germany, Italy and Japan were delivered from evil by outsiders. This time around, America could be on the wrong side of history, siding with the autocrats and modern tsars. These are Trump's peeps. Who will save America then, NATO?
If it's a "historical clarification grounded in facts" that the temperance of liberalism failed, what is left? The point you made in your original post on how Maga types view liberals are "facts" in their world, are they not? In their world we are devils and demons.
Saw an interview in which a focus group moderator relayed the response she got from citing unemployment statistics. "Where did you get those stats?" came the replay. "From the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The retort was "I will get my own source of statistics because those can't be right.
That is the kind of reasoning that should be exposed to persuadable voters who aren't yet paying attention. I think the historical facts of violent responses to fascism only scares them.
There wasn't reasoning that would have changed the minds/actions of Hitler's or Mussolini's movements either, and that which cannot be reasoned with and conducts itself violently can only be stopped with counter-violence. Maybe we're already on that path, just not at that final destination yet. At the very least people should start mentally preparing themselves for that possibility. We just might get to find out exactly how much democracy means to people when they might have to fight to maintain it themselves, as opposed to just carrying on with their regular daily lives under an autocratic/violent government. There's a non-zero chance of that happening during our lifetimes from where I'm sitting.
"We just might get to find out exactly how much democracy means to people when they might have to fight to maintain it themselves, as opposed to just carrying on with their regular daily lives under an autocratic/violent government."
I'm a lifelong Texas leftist who regularly gets into "good trouble" fighting the fascists who have been in charge of this state for years. Antifa are the good guys down here.
then we are already on that path because hard-core Maga-types cannot be reasoned with. There is a slimmer of hope with his election and that is the breakaway of those who choose to ignore the state in which we find ourselves. Heard a priceless comment from historian Heather Cox Richardson to those who blithely claim they don't get involved in politics. She said, politics is about to get very involved with YOU.
We're on the path via not being able to reason with them, but we're not on the path via them doing autocratic government with unconstrained extra-legal violence yet.
And yes, people may not be interested in politics, but politics may be interested in them. The same applies to violence--whether political or otherwise. You may not be interested in it, but it may be interested in you.
Sad to say Americans in neighborhoods across the country with illegal immigrants in their midst are about to see that violence as they watch neighbors dragging into the streets by "jack-booted government thugs" and into awaiting transports. What will happen to the crying children clinging to their mother's skirts?
Spell them out - YES!!!!! And do so in terms the voters can understand. That means how the threat will afffect them personally. The very first point is how his proposed economic policies - steep tariffs and sweeping tax cuts – would probably increase inflation and strain the US's finances. The second is how removing illegals from the work force will increase the cost of food and services. I'm sure there are more ways the Dems can SHOW how he is a threat, not just TELL us he is.
We have yet to see the kind of violence imposed by the fascists that ignited the liberal response in WWII. Liberals with guns right now is not the answer. I am a bit dismayed at the number of likes a post promoting counter-violence has received.
The republicans are making the point that we are hounding Trump for being an "existential threat to democracy" when he is not. Too many people excuse his rhetoric saying he said crazy stuff in 2016 that he didn't do.
First, somebody somewhere needs to start hammering home the point that in 2016 no one expected him to win so he came into office without the infrastructure needed to put his notions into action.
This time it's different, and I don't think enough people realize it. Project 2025 is a blueprint containing multiple proposals that should be seen as a threat to our democratic institutions that have served us well for more than two hundred years.
The threats need to be spelled out in detail, not as broad stroke "existential threats to democracy." Stop talking about existential threats and spell them out.
You make such a fine point about institutions that have served us well for 200+ years. The arrogance, ignorance, and ultimately greed of educated and powerful Americans like the Republican SCOTUS, Judge Cannon, the GOP is vile. They really are evil and we have the right to fight back against violence and political oppression.
I'll say is again and again. Influencers need to spell out in detail how Trump threatens those institutions. in detail. Water safety is a good start. Do those undecided voters really want a political appointee instead of an expert implementing water regulations?
I do not read Travis and think "promotion of counter-violence", or tit-for-tat, or anything of the sort. I read Travis and think about the hyperbole that he's underlining and the lessons of history that he's pointing to.
Fascism was not put down in Germany and Italy by an internal immune response. It had its noggin stoved in by the USMC, RAF, the French resistance, and others who gave to topple it. Fanatical imperialism was not brought low in Japan by the men and women of Honshu, Shikoku, Kyushu, and Hokkaido. It was done in by the efforts of the United States Navy and Air Force, the scientists back home, Chinese resistance, and the raw power of economics. Outside forces came on planes and ships because internal correctives were too weak-willed to push hard against burgeoning evil.
The lesson of history is that evil in the hearts of fellow Man have to be fought with good and insight. The alternative is violence, and it should be an absolute last resort when it is all we desperately have left.
Vote, Goddamnit!
"I am a bit dismayed at the number of likes a post promoting counter-violence has received."
I'm not promoting counter-violence, only pointing to the *fact* that violent authoritarian movements of the past weren't put down by the temperance of liberalism. They were put down with overwhelming counter-violence. There's a *big* difference between making historical clarifications that are grounded in facts and "promoting" counter-violence. Promoting counter-violence would be telling people to gun up and start taking things into their own hands. That's not at all what I'm doing here.
I'm on your side, Travis, counter violence a this time would not be productive. I also stand by my earlier thoughts about "something really bad will result from Trump's reelection" and it could involve mass violence and destruction. It took 30+ million deaths, Europe and Japan in ruins for liberalism to be saved from evil in WW II. Germany, Italy and Japan were delivered from evil by outsiders. This time around, America could be on the wrong side of history, siding with the autocrats and modern tsars. These are Trump's peeps. Who will save America then, NATO?
If it's a "historical clarification grounded in facts" that the temperance of liberalism failed, what is left? The point you made in your original post on how Maga types view liberals are "facts" in their world, are they not? In their world we are devils and demons.
Saw an interview in which a focus group moderator relayed the response she got from citing unemployment statistics. "Where did you get those stats?" came the replay. "From the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The retort was "I will get my own source of statistics because those can't be right.
That is the kind of reasoning that should be exposed to persuadable voters who aren't yet paying attention. I think the historical facts of violent responses to fascism only scares them.
There wasn't reasoning that would have changed the minds/actions of Hitler's or Mussolini's movements either, and that which cannot be reasoned with and conducts itself violently can only be stopped with counter-violence. Maybe we're already on that path, just not at that final destination yet. At the very least people should start mentally preparing themselves for that possibility. We just might get to find out exactly how much democracy means to people when they might have to fight to maintain it themselves, as opposed to just carrying on with their regular daily lives under an autocratic/violent government. There's a non-zero chance of that happening during our lifetimes from where I'm sitting.
"We just might get to find out exactly how much democracy means to people when they might have to fight to maintain it themselves, as opposed to just carrying on with their regular daily lives under an autocratic/violent government."
I'm a lifelong Texas leftist who regularly gets into "good trouble" fighting the fascists who have been in charge of this state for years. Antifa are the good guys down here.
then we are already on that path because hard-core Maga-types cannot be reasoned with. There is a slimmer of hope with his election and that is the breakaway of those who choose to ignore the state in which we find ourselves. Heard a priceless comment from historian Heather Cox Richardson to those who blithely claim they don't get involved in politics. She said, politics is about to get very involved with YOU.
We're on the path via not being able to reason with them, but we're not on the path via them doing autocratic government with unconstrained extra-legal violence yet.
And yes, people may not be interested in politics, but politics may be interested in them. The same applies to violence--whether political or otherwise. You may not be interested in it, but it may be interested in you.
Sad to say Americans in neighborhoods across the country with illegal immigrants in their midst are about to see that violence as they watch neighbors dragging into the streets by "jack-booted government thugs" and into awaiting transports. What will happen to the crying children clinging to their mother's skirts?
And I'm sure that the government that "is the problem" won't mess up and drag off anybody they shouldn't.
Yup
Spell them out - YES!!!!! And do so in terms the voters can understand. That means how the threat will afffect them personally. The very first point is how his proposed economic policies - steep tariffs and sweeping tax cuts – would probably increase inflation and strain the US's finances. The second is how removing illegals from the work force will increase the cost of food and services. I'm sure there are more ways the Dems can SHOW how he is a threat, not just TELL us he is.