Yes we are, but which is worse? In the event of a Biden/Harris win, we have the chance to continue and strengthen the current efforts to depolarize our nation. See (https://commongroundcommittee.org/depolarizing-america/).
Sandy, I no longer believe appealing to our better angels is a viable way forward to end polarization. I do believe that when people show you who they are, you should take them at their word. And for the past several years, there is one and only one party that has stressed the guardrails that's kept our democracy going for 250 years. Their intentions are clear through words and deeds. There are *no* better angels to appeal to.
Sandy, in a sane world, there should be no swing voters. The election is between an old man who is a good man and has been a good president, and the biggest friggin' moral degenerate who has ever been elected to office. Period. The record is clear, the stakes are clearer, and there is no margin for error. And if one of these swing voters can't wrap their head around and acknowledge the purely existential threat Trump presents, then we are totally and legitimately screwed.
Yes it does. At this point, there is nothing to be done about that except reach them, inform them and persuade them to vote Democratic. That's what canvassing is. That's the responsibility of the Dem party. (Yes, this all hangs on the Dem party.) Can they do it? Maybe not. Gotta try.
I have faith in my ability, Tim. I'm a good listener, and I'm interested in learning people's stories. Listening shows respect. That goes a long way in reaching people with whom I have political disagreements.
Well, that's not entirely true. Trump is very old, and so are many of his fans, including his most devoted ones. The money is running out. Florida is in financial straits. And Trump can't actually improve anyone's living conditions. The GOP policies already mean that people in Red States don't live as long as people in Blue States. Propaganda may be able to cover that up for quite a while, but truth comes out in unpredictable ways. And the alliance between the Chamber of Commerce types and the Christian Nationalists gets weaker all the time. The truth will out as it did for the Soviets. The more we delay, the less damage can be done in that time. Maybe! I am not good at predictions.
Kate, these people are very determined, very well funded, and have support in Congress and the judiciary. And they are also amoral. What they want is power. And should Trump win, he's got control of the executive branch and all of its agencies, and the Congress and judiciary will do his bidding. Game, set, match. It's over. Any and all resistance to Trump will be dealt with using unfettered executive power.
And by the way, people who vote in red states don't give a rat's ass about things like mortality rates, childhood obesity, poverty, or any sort of policy. What they care about is getting even with people who they think look down on them. There's no reasoning with people like that. So we have to have really think about what is the worst possible thing that can happen.
I don't think the country is sustainable as is. As JVL has said, the pro-democracy side has to be perfect everytime, and none of us can be 100% perfect. The facsists just have to luck into getting it once, and frankly maybe that was 2016. I thought we had beaten them back in 2020, but here we are.
But even if Biden wins, we're still for all intents and purposes in a precarious place.
Yes we are, but which is worse? In the event of a Biden/Harris win, we have the chance to continue and strengthen the current efforts to depolarize our nation. See (https://commongroundcommittee.org/depolarizing-america/).
Sandy, I no longer believe appealing to our better angels is a viable way forward to end polarization. I do believe that when people show you who they are, you should take them at their word. And for the past several years, there is one and only one party that has stressed the guardrails that's kept our democracy going for 250 years. Their intentions are clear through words and deeds. There are *no* better angels to appeal to.
Among MAGA, yes. Among swing voters, I think there are.
Sandy, in a sane world, there should be no swing voters. The election is between an old man who is a good man and has been a good president, and the biggest friggin' moral degenerate who has ever been elected to office. Period. The record is clear, the stakes are clearer, and there is no margin for error. And if one of these swing voters can't wrap their head around and acknowledge the purely existential threat Trump presents, then we are totally and legitimately screwed.
Tim, I don't know any pesonally (but I will be canvassin in WI next month, so I will). The surveys I've seen on them (https://www.dataforprogress.org/insights/2024/5/30/measuring-the-swing-evaluating-the-key-voters-of-2024) show that they are disengaged, low-information voters. I don't know that the record of either candidate or the stakes in electing Trump are clear to them.
And yet the fate of the republic lies upon their shoulders.
Yes it does. At this point, there is nothing to be done about that except reach them, inform them and persuade them to vote Democratic. That's what canvassing is. That's the responsibility of the Dem party. (Yes, this all hangs on the Dem party.) Can they do it? Maybe not. Gotta try.
You have more faith in the ability to reach them than I do.
I have faith in my ability, Tim. I'm a good listener, and I'm interested in learning people's stories. Listening shows respect. That goes a long way in reaching people with whom I have political disagreements.
Well, you're a far better person than me, Sandy. And I mean that.
Sure, but there's no quick fix to get us out of that place. All we can do at this point is delay until the worst of MAGA burns out.
What evidence is there that it'll burn out, Kate?
See "What Does our Current Fourth Turning Hold for Us?" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAxBjl7VYOM).
None!
Well, that's not entirely true. Trump is very old, and so are many of his fans, including his most devoted ones. The money is running out. Florida is in financial straits. And Trump can't actually improve anyone's living conditions. The GOP policies already mean that people in Red States don't live as long as people in Blue States. Propaganda may be able to cover that up for quite a while, but truth comes out in unpredictable ways. And the alliance between the Chamber of Commerce types and the Christian Nationalists gets weaker all the time. The truth will out as it did for the Soviets. The more we delay, the less damage can be done in that time. Maybe! I am not good at predictions.
Kate, these people are very determined, very well funded, and have support in Congress and the judiciary. And they are also amoral. What they want is power. And should Trump win, he's got control of the executive branch and all of its agencies, and the Congress and judiciary will do his bidding. Game, set, match. It's over. Any and all resistance to Trump will be dealt with using unfettered executive power.
And by the way, people who vote in red states don't give a rat's ass about things like mortality rates, childhood obesity, poverty, or any sort of policy. What they care about is getting even with people who they think look down on them. There's no reasoning with people like that. So we have to have really think about what is the worst possible thing that can happen.
I don't think the country is sustainable as is. As JVL has said, the pro-democracy side has to be perfect everytime, and none of us can be 100% perfect. The facsists just have to luck into getting it once, and frankly maybe that was 2016. I thought we had beaten them back in 2020, but here we are.