72% of Republicans now view Democrats as a lot or somewhat more immoral than other Americans.
Hey everyone, the party that collaborates and welcomes white supremacists, Klansmen, neo-Nazis, and the people responsible for the massacre of Black people at a Charleston church and a Buffalo market, the massacre of Jewish people at a Pittsburgh temple, and the massacre of mostly Latinos at an El Paso Walmart, not to mention the Charlottesville riots and the January 6 attack on Congress, have a problem with our morals.
I think this FBI thing is a big mistake. Whether or not he is actually above the law is beside the point. The GOP leadership has had seven years to handle this and cowered instead. The risks are too great to do this without GOP leaders behind it as support. I think Garland shouldn’t take politics into consideration but homeland security may have reasons to argue against federal prosecution of Trump for any reason.
i fervently wish for all of you to be safe! Its not that, sitting in my small European country, I dont see the same forces and mechanics, the people itching for sweeping away what occupies THEIR country (its always THEIR, take back OUR country, as if the majority on the other side doesnt count, or even exist. I dont underestimate them, I dont dismiss the apparent difficulty or even seeming impossibility to find common language and ground…but real fear is when I see your country slide. How can we manage global deescalation and global climate action without all your constructive forces coming together? Thx, again, for figh…..for arguing for it.
"Dishonest" is an interesting one. I presume we're talking about the members of the party, not just the politicians. Republican voters say a lot of untrue things all the time, but apparently they believe it, so are they really being dishonest? I'd say no. The one that kinda surprises me is immorality. That is the only one I feel confident in. Republicans are definitely more immoral than other Americans. I don't think they're more lazy, or more dishonest, or lower in intelligence, or more close-minded on average but they consistently vote to put the interests of the business community and the wealthy over the general public welfare. Some of the "good ones" volunteer or donate to private charities, but that can't possibly make up for all the harm they have caused.
We're in the pre-Nazi days in the US version of the Weimar Republic. The days when Hitler was actually in jail writing Mein Kampf (I wish Trump!) and the SS and SA were like the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers and KKK. Those who are more versed in that history could explain better; my area is the last days of WWII. Anyway, there's still time, IF the sane part of the population wakes up and the moneyed classes figure out they DON'T want Trump and his Pets in charge. Once their uniforms start appearing, we damn well had better stop them!
When the internet republicans threatens to kill me and my kids, I’m going to view their party unfavorably, negatively, and immoral. I’m a moderate independent voter, btw. Crazy stuff. Crazy country.
I live in a Trumpian village. The culture of this town was MAGA before MAGA. Low education/incest/alcoholism/drug dealing and overdosing GOP proud for all of my seventy and more years. Town government is controlled by MAGA, although NH small town government is traditionally non-partisan. Forget that. This is now Fortress Trump. As in all ascending one party/authoritarian/fascist/dictatorships/tyrannies ,I keep my head low. My lips zipped. This is gun country. And pick up truck/coal burnin'/Trump flaggin' nirvana. Moreover, being LBGTQ, well, I try to be invisible. It looks like my life may depend upon it.
I have a hard time living in an area that's fairly right leaning and has its share of confederate flags well north of the Ohio River. I can only imagine how hard it is for you in a situation where the environment sounds worse and your personal situation would make you more of a target than mine does (though I do have some target markers if one digs a bit).
I'll echo aljbrown3 about moving, but I suspect there's something tying you to the spot.
The only way that your town is going to change is probably to get worse. There are friendlier places where you could move and still be in New England, even in New Hampshire, if that's important to you. I hope that you do -- you owe it to yourself to be happy and to feel safe.
One thing I'd like to see Charlie is brining in someone with real expertise to discuss what Civil War 2.0 would look like. I simply can't imagine a scenario where a legitimate Civil War breaks out. For a war to happen, you have to have two sides that are capable of sustaining a conflict with each other over a meaningful period of time and to take an hold territory.
Most of the people on social media who are saber rattling seem to expect some kind of domestic insurgency where pockets of right wing militias incite violence. I don't see this as a war as much as a series of domestic terrorism events where law enforcement turns up and deals with the situation.
In order to have a real shooting war, MAGA would have to field a fighting force capable going toe to toe with the US Armed Forces. How does that happen?
1. The Armed forces fracture into two groups - Loyalists and Extremists.
2. The governors of Red states declare independence and draft a military force.
3. Some 3rd party (China? Russia?) intervenes to provide MAGA with the resources & manpower to fight.
So I just don't see any of these scenarios being realistic either alone or in combination. Are there really millions of people in the US who are willing to leave the security of their family, jobs and communities behind to go to war against the US military? Does anyone think that Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley, when push comes to shove, are going to resign from Congress and have the spine to put their lives on the line by joining a rebel army / government?
It would be really enlightening to get someone with military experience to talk about what the actual threat level is for a civil war. Just because some guy on Twitter says "Tomorrow is War, Sleep Well." doesn't mean that guy is actually picking up a gun and risking his life.
Maybe not a civil war, which you're right is hard to see, but asymmetrical warfare / terrorism is an awful possibility to contemplate. Putting aside ideologies or even the right of things, Ireland, South Africa, and Israel are all examples of places where insurgents never assembled a viable military force against a formidable military power, but wrought havoc for years. Something to consider and fear, at least in terms of living through and with it.
I also find it very hard to imagine asymmetrical warfare / terrorism working for any extended period of time in the country with the most advanced military, law enforcement institutions and surveillance capabilities the world has ever known. Especially when (unlike Ireland, etc.) the terrorists will not be supported by their local community along ethnic / religious grounds due to actual persecution (as opposed to the weak/fake claims of persecution MAGA has now).
This is what I hang my hope on when it comes to Ireland as an example. And that's not to say that we can't have some of the troubles, but that I don't think it gets sustained for anywhere near as long if it happens.
My biggest concern is really for the next time a Republican is in the whitehouse and the Republican running loses. That's where uncertainty about the legitimacy of who is giving the orders can lead to fracturing of police and military. If J6 had been a bit more 'successful' and Trump declares martial law or something, does the military just stop taking his orders on Jan 20th when there's 'uncertainty', no official inauguration, etc., etc.?
/2 I called my brother who is a lifelong Republican in deep red MAGA-ville West Texas and asked him if he would go to war for Trump. He said - "I have to get my crop planted and the girls have a stock show next weekend, so I can't fit civil war into my schedule right now."
He's a funny guy, but there is a major kernal of truth in that statement. How many Americans - even the most aggressive MAGA fans on Twitter - are willing to risk their lives and the lives of their kids and grandkids to go to war? I think the answer is - none of the sane ones.
Are the millions of insane people out there? Sure. But should we be really worried about the people who wear Trump t-shirts to MAGA rallies being any kind of threat to a SWAT team or a National Guard unit - even if thousands of them show up with AR 15s and pipe bombs?
If there was going to be an armed insurrection, wouldn't it have happened on Jan6 when they believed the election had been stolen?
I think its all a huge game of chicken. And the cowards are the people on the MAGA side. The only people truly willing to go to war and die for their beliefs by the millions are the anti-MAGA people.
not only that but he likely has over a million dollars in land and equipment at risk. The ones talking about civil war are (as grand dad have said) the ones who "don't have a pot to piss in nor a window to throw it out of"
If you have a big truck, an AR 15 and thousands of rounds of ammo, you by definition have a pot to piss in. There has never been a civil war in a modern first world country because no one who is capable of effectively fighting a war is willing to risk all the benefits they have due to living in a first world country. If we are talking about some nutty fringe militia people, my money is on the US military to win that fight. 100 times out of 100.
Most folks are more in love with the idea than with carrying out the plan. It is a bit like something that happened to me a few years ago. My pickup backfired as I parked it in my driveway. It was an old neighborhood with a lot of crime. For some reason I ended up with 10 police officers on my front porch weapons drawn and me in handcuffs.
Telling the story to my bil an NRA buff, he told me that was why we needed the second amendment. I just laughed and replyed"the problem with that is I wasn't interested in committing suicide"
Sorry, when it comes to the cost it takes to get that crop in, yeah bubba and his hocked to the eyebrows pickup truck is still looking for a place to piss. He is not alone the little gangbanger with his multiple weapons is also almost homeless.
So not sure how much you know about farming (maybe a lot?) but even though my brother has a lot of money sunk in land and equipment, its not liquid. You can't ever sell land or equipment to make rent or you eventually don't have a farm left. My brother is a LOT closer to having no pot to piss in than a wanna be militia idiot who makes $70 / hr as a contract welder on an oil rig and spends all his money on guns, ammo and diesel for his massive truck.
Also, in the county where my brother lives - Nolan County, Texas - the vast majority of folks are family farmers (or their parents, spouse or siblings are). They all live government crop insurance check to government crop insurance check. So he and his extended family (sister who is a nurse, wife who is a teacher, etc) are representative of the average family in the community. None of these folks are leaving their family behind to fight a war for Trump. So, at least in rural Texas, I don't know where the army MAGA needs to fight a civil war is coming from.
oh heck, its on the loose anyway. Global warming is going to force all of us to move to Canada anyway. I'm sure the Trumpaloompas will find a way to stick around.
Here's a funny thought...the Murdoch family seems to believe that Trump (and his MAGA garbage piles masquerading as humans) is extremely bad for the future of the nation, but they also do not rein in their employees at Fox Lifestyle in their rhetoric (Dan Bada-Bingo...yeah, come at me, guido) because they seem to be scared stiff of losing viewers. Imagine a boss who is frightened of his own employees--who knew Lachlan Murdoch was a colossal chicken-sh*t? At this point, Lachlan Murdoch is not really any different from Ismael Zambada García, who runs the Sinaloa Drug Cartel...both sell products that give massive dopamine hits that ultimately kill you.
Just like scammers use misspellings to filter out smart people, some rhetoric exists to ensure only stupid people are listening. Viewers are nice, but viewers who buy off-brand vitamin supplements from hucksters are more valuable.
“ This experiment in self-government requires a minimum amount of social trust to succeed. With every tweet that spreads cynicism and lies, with every call to arms that welcomes civil conflict, Trumpist Republicans are poisoning the nation they so ostentatiously claim to love.”
Right on, Mona. I am still incredulous at what Donald Trump has done to the Republican Party, feel relief that he chose to become a Republican to seek the Presidency, and a sense of guilt at that relief. Today the guy who said “So there are five people taking the Fifth Amendment. Like you see on the mob, right? You see the mob takes the Fifth. If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?” is taking the Fifth at a civil deposition. He says he now understands why. Because he is at heart a criminal, and has infected the GOP with his lawless mindset. I sincerely hope it won’t take until his death for the spell to break. I don’t know how much further the rubber band can stretch.
Rush Limbaugh's radio show hit NYC in 1988, first to WABC, then WOR. Fox News launched in 1996. Slowly at first, then at a gallop, outlets like these (and their wannabees) learned one thing very well: outrage sells like a motherfucker. More outrage, more money.
Academics and magazine writers conjure endless theories to account for rising partisan rancor these past decades: "browning," income disparity, unconscious dread of climate catastrophe, sunspots.
But this is America. It's greed, stupid.
And before somebody says "Hungary," do those same somebodies doubt that Viktor Orbán is now very wealthy?
I swore I won't, but Mark made me do it. He has a take today on MAGAs and Orban, which led me to read, make that skim, Rod's post on TAC. The man is in love with Orban. Another article there is, of course, complaining about the "raid", and pretty much saying that Eastman and others are legal geniuses. The article goes on to say (again skimming it) that those poor folks who had worked in the Trump administration can't get decent jobs and many of them have huge legal bills, that of course Trump ain't paying. He apparently hasn't made the connection that potential employers look at former Trump Pets as a liability.
72% of Republicans now view Democrats as a lot or somewhat more immoral than other Americans.
Hey everyone, the party that collaborates and welcomes white supremacists, Klansmen, neo-Nazis, and the people responsible for the massacre of Black people at a Charleston church and a Buffalo market, the massacre of Jewish people at a Pittsburgh temple, and the massacre of mostly Latinos at an El Paso Walmart, not to mention the Charlottesville riots and the January 6 attack on Congress, have a problem with our morals.
Trump supporters are subhuman.
Mona’s tweet is priceless!
Trumpism is narcissism as a political force. The pathology of narcissists is the philosophy behind how they all operate.
Today's Republican Party always makes me think of this scene:
https://youtu.be/hLmuF-0P4tk
I think this FBI thing is a big mistake. Whether or not he is actually above the law is beside the point. The GOP leadership has had seven years to handle this and cowered instead. The risks are too great to do this without GOP leaders behind it as support. I think Garland shouldn’t take politics into consideration but homeland security may have reasons to argue against federal prosecution of Trump for any reason.
i fervently wish for all of you to be safe! Its not that, sitting in my small European country, I dont see the same forces and mechanics, the people itching for sweeping away what occupies THEIR country (its always THEIR, take back OUR country, as if the majority on the other side doesnt count, or even exist. I dont underestimate them, I dont dismiss the apparent difficulty or even seeming impossibility to find common language and ground…but real fear is when I see your country slide. How can we manage global deescalation and global climate action without all your constructive forces coming together? Thx, again, for figh…..for arguing for it.
"Dishonest" is an interesting one. I presume we're talking about the members of the party, not just the politicians. Republican voters say a lot of untrue things all the time, but apparently they believe it, so are they really being dishonest? I'd say no. The one that kinda surprises me is immorality. That is the only one I feel confident in. Republicans are definitely more immoral than other Americans. I don't think they're more lazy, or more dishonest, or lower in intelligence, or more close-minded on average but they consistently vote to put the interests of the business community and the wealthy over the general public welfare. Some of the "good ones" volunteer or donate to private charities, but that can't possibly make up for all the harm they have caused.
It's not a civil war they want; it's a holy war. Pretty critical difference.
We're in the pre-Nazi days in the US version of the Weimar Republic. The days when Hitler was actually in jail writing Mein Kampf (I wish Trump!) and the SS and SA were like the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers and KKK. Those who are more versed in that history could explain better; my area is the last days of WWII. Anyway, there's still time, IF the sane part of the population wakes up and the moneyed classes figure out they DON'T want Trump and his Pets in charge. Once their uniforms start appearing, we damn well had better stop them!
When the internet republicans threatens to kill me and my kids, I’m going to view their party unfavorably, negatively, and immoral. I’m a moderate independent voter, btw. Crazy stuff. Crazy country.
I live in a Trumpian village. The culture of this town was MAGA before MAGA. Low education/incest/alcoholism/drug dealing and overdosing GOP proud for all of my seventy and more years. Town government is controlled by MAGA, although NH small town government is traditionally non-partisan. Forget that. This is now Fortress Trump. As in all ascending one party/authoritarian/fascist/dictatorships/tyrannies ,I keep my head low. My lips zipped. This is gun country. And pick up truck/coal burnin'/Trump flaggin' nirvana. Moreover, being LBGTQ, well, I try to be invisible. It looks like my life may depend upon it.
I have a hard time living in an area that's fairly right leaning and has its share of confederate flags well north of the Ohio River. I can only imagine how hard it is for you in a situation where the environment sounds worse and your personal situation would make you more of a target than mine does (though I do have some target markers if one digs a bit).
I'll echo aljbrown3 about moving, but I suspect there's something tying you to the spot.
The only way that your town is going to change is probably to get worse. There are friendlier places where you could move and still be in New England, even in New Hampshire, if that's important to you. I hope that you do -- you owe it to yourself to be happy and to feel safe.
One thing I'd like to see Charlie is brining in someone with real expertise to discuss what Civil War 2.0 would look like. I simply can't imagine a scenario where a legitimate Civil War breaks out. For a war to happen, you have to have two sides that are capable of sustaining a conflict with each other over a meaningful period of time and to take an hold territory.
Most of the people on social media who are saber rattling seem to expect some kind of domestic insurgency where pockets of right wing militias incite violence. I don't see this as a war as much as a series of domestic terrorism events where law enforcement turns up and deals with the situation.
In order to have a real shooting war, MAGA would have to field a fighting force capable going toe to toe with the US Armed Forces. How does that happen?
1. The Armed forces fracture into two groups - Loyalists and Extremists.
2. The governors of Red states declare independence and draft a military force.
3. Some 3rd party (China? Russia?) intervenes to provide MAGA with the resources & manpower to fight.
So I just don't see any of these scenarios being realistic either alone or in combination. Are there really millions of people in the US who are willing to leave the security of their family, jobs and communities behind to go to war against the US military? Does anyone think that Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley, when push comes to shove, are going to resign from Congress and have the spine to put their lives on the line by joining a rebel army / government?
It would be really enlightening to get someone with military experience to talk about what the actual threat level is for a civil war. Just because some guy on Twitter says "Tomorrow is War, Sleep Well." doesn't mean that guy is actually picking up a gun and risking his life.
Maybe not a civil war, which you're right is hard to see, but asymmetrical warfare / terrorism is an awful possibility to contemplate. Putting aside ideologies or even the right of things, Ireland, South Africa, and Israel are all examples of places where insurgents never assembled a viable military force against a formidable military power, but wrought havoc for years. Something to consider and fear, at least in terms of living through and with it.
I also find it very hard to imagine asymmetrical warfare / terrorism working for any extended period of time in the country with the most advanced military, law enforcement institutions and surveillance capabilities the world has ever known. Especially when (unlike Ireland, etc.) the terrorists will not be supported by their local community along ethnic / religious grounds due to actual persecution (as opposed to the weak/fake claims of persecution MAGA has now).
This is what I hang my hope on when it comes to Ireland as an example. And that's not to say that we can't have some of the troubles, but that I don't think it gets sustained for anywhere near as long if it happens.
My biggest concern is really for the next time a Republican is in the whitehouse and the Republican running loses. That's where uncertainty about the legitimacy of who is giving the orders can lead to fracturing of police and military. If J6 had been a bit more 'successful' and Trump declares martial law or something, does the military just stop taking his orders on Jan 20th when there's 'uncertainty', no official inauguration, etc., etc.?
I hope you are right.
Me too. Me too.
. . . and you probably are. Most Americans are more decent than we give each other credit for.
/2 I called my brother who is a lifelong Republican in deep red MAGA-ville West Texas and asked him if he would go to war for Trump. He said - "I have to get my crop planted and the girls have a stock show next weekend, so I can't fit civil war into my schedule right now."
He's a funny guy, but there is a major kernal of truth in that statement. How many Americans - even the most aggressive MAGA fans on Twitter - are willing to risk their lives and the lives of their kids and grandkids to go to war? I think the answer is - none of the sane ones.
Are the millions of insane people out there? Sure. But should we be really worried about the people who wear Trump t-shirts to MAGA rallies being any kind of threat to a SWAT team or a National Guard unit - even if thousands of them show up with AR 15s and pipe bombs?
If there was going to be an armed insurrection, wouldn't it have happened on Jan6 when they believed the election had been stolen?
I think its all a huge game of chicken. And the cowards are the people on the MAGA side. The only people truly willing to go to war and die for their beliefs by the millions are the anti-MAGA people.
not only that but he likely has over a million dollars in land and equipment at risk. The ones talking about civil war are (as grand dad have said) the ones who "don't have a pot to piss in nor a window to throw it out of"
If you have a big truck, an AR 15 and thousands of rounds of ammo, you by definition have a pot to piss in. There has never been a civil war in a modern first world country because no one who is capable of effectively fighting a war is willing to risk all the benefits they have due to living in a first world country. If we are talking about some nutty fringe militia people, my money is on the US military to win that fight. 100 times out of 100.
Most folks are more in love with the idea than with carrying out the plan. It is a bit like something that happened to me a few years ago. My pickup backfired as I parked it in my driveway. It was an old neighborhood with a lot of crime. For some reason I ended up with 10 police officers on my front porch weapons drawn and me in handcuffs.
Telling the story to my bil an NRA buff, he told me that was why we needed the second amendment. I just laughed and replyed"the problem with that is I wasn't interested in committing suicide"
So many hot takes could be drawn from that story, but needing a second amendment for it wouldn't be my first or even eleventeeth one.
Maybe, just maybe, some police reform?!?
Exactly right.
Sorry, when it comes to the cost it takes to get that crop in, yeah bubba and his hocked to the eyebrows pickup truck is still looking for a place to piss. He is not alone the little gangbanger with his multiple weapons is also almost homeless.
So not sure how much you know about farming (maybe a lot?) but even though my brother has a lot of money sunk in land and equipment, its not liquid. You can't ever sell land or equipment to make rent or you eventually don't have a farm left. My brother is a LOT closer to having no pot to piss in than a wanna be militia idiot who makes $70 / hr as a contract welder on an oil rig and spends all his money on guns, ammo and diesel for his massive truck.
Also, in the county where my brother lives - Nolan County, Texas - the vast majority of folks are family farmers (or their parents, spouse or siblings are). They all live government crop insurance check to government crop insurance check. So he and his extended family (sister who is a nurse, wife who is a teacher, etc) are representative of the average family in the community. None of these folks are leaving their family behind to fight a war for Trump. So, at least in rural Texas, I don't know where the army MAGA needs to fight a civil war is coming from.
oh heck, its on the loose anyway. Global warming is going to force all of us to move to Canada anyway. I'm sure the Trumpaloompas will find a way to stick around.
Here's a funny thought...the Murdoch family seems to believe that Trump (and his MAGA garbage piles masquerading as humans) is extremely bad for the future of the nation, but they also do not rein in their employees at Fox Lifestyle in their rhetoric (Dan Bada-Bingo...yeah, come at me, guido) because they seem to be scared stiff of losing viewers. Imagine a boss who is frightened of his own employees--who knew Lachlan Murdoch was a colossal chicken-sh*t? At this point, Lachlan Murdoch is not really any different from Ismael Zambada García, who runs the Sinaloa Drug Cartel...both sell products that give massive dopamine hits that ultimately kill you.
Did no one stop to think they might gain viewers? Intelligent ones?
Just like scammers use misspellings to filter out smart people, some rhetoric exists to ensure only stupid people are listening. Viewers are nice, but viewers who buy off-brand vitamin supplements from hucksters are more valuable.
Since I don't watch Fox - they really advertise that stuff? Then again, they've had big advertisers leave.
“ This experiment in self-government requires a minimum amount of social trust to succeed. With every tweet that spreads cynicism and lies, with every call to arms that welcomes civil conflict, Trumpist Republicans are poisoning the nation they so ostentatiously claim to love.”
Right on, Mona. I am still incredulous at what Donald Trump has done to the Republican Party, feel relief that he chose to become a Republican to seek the Presidency, and a sense of guilt at that relief. Today the guy who said “So there are five people taking the Fifth Amendment. Like you see on the mob, right? You see the mob takes the Fifth. If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?” is taking the Fifth at a civil deposition. He says he now understands why. Because he is at heart a criminal, and has infected the GOP with his lawless mindset. I sincerely hope it won’t take until his death for the spell to break. I don’t know how much further the rubber band can stretch.
Rush Limbaugh's radio show hit NYC in 1988, first to WABC, then WOR. Fox News launched in 1996. Slowly at first, then at a gallop, outlets like these (and their wannabees) learned one thing very well: outrage sells like a motherfucker. More outrage, more money.
Academics and magazine writers conjure endless theories to account for rising partisan rancor these past decades: "browning," income disparity, unconscious dread of climate catastrophe, sunspots.
But this is America. It's greed, stupid.
And before somebody says "Hungary," do those same somebodies doubt that Viktor Orbán is now very wealthy?
LQ
I swore I won't, but Mark made me do it. He has a take today on MAGAs and Orban, which led me to read, make that skim, Rod's post on TAC. The man is in love with Orban. Another article there is, of course, complaining about the "raid", and pretty much saying that Eastman and others are legal geniuses. The article goes on to say (again skimming it) that those poor folks who had worked in the Trump administration can't get decent jobs and many of them have huge legal bills, that of course Trump ain't paying. He apparently hasn't made the connection that potential employers look at former Trump Pets as a liability.