Excellent podcast.I am a family historian with some famous ancestors starting from 1653 New Utrecht Brooklyn and Rev War .To understand life under Tyranny and under a Kings rule.
Try visiting Brooklyn “ Prison Ship monument “ in Fort Green and over 11,500 Rev War prisoners perished and left to rot in British Prison ships off Brooklyns Fort Green . Took 75 years to recover the buried dead from the shallow grave along the East River.
And under British rule the occupation of Long Island was brutal and ruthless. If you wonder why the Bill of Rights was written. It was from the abuse of living under British Tyranny's.
William Buckley strongly advocated shedding the extremists from the conservative movement at a time when pretty much the entire left seemed to endorse, or at least to tolerate, "pas d'ennemis a gauche" thinking. Any lesson from that for today is surely fogged up by the redefining of the word "conservative", but it's worth remembering at least.
Wouldn't Cromwell's protectorate have been fresher in the minds of the Founders? Wouldn't he, and his effective abolishing of Parliament when it got too inconvenient, have been the far more relevant example of a demagogue?
I didn't live in the late 1700s, nor have I read much history specifically addressing the period which wasn't focused on setting the stage for the Civil War, but I figure the Founders were far warier of a Cromwell than any King Charles, Charles, William, or George.
Thanks for the interview with Ryan. He and Robert Greene are the ones that got me reading history and biographies. What he says about the founders and Roman/Greek influence is covered pretty well by Tom Ricks in “First Principles.” One thing I found odd was the number of Scottish tutors.
“one of the problems with studying history is that it can lead you to despair because you see how bad things could potentially get. The other thing is it makes you go, oh, at least it's not as bad as then, right?”
Funny that Ryan says that. I’ve been reading a lot of Alan Taylor’s books and that thought occurs to me frequently. Not to minimize things nowadays. But, our history has been pretty brutal. Even during my lifetime there’s been the fight for civil rights and campus unrest of the 60s with 4 deaths at Kent State.
Nonetheless, let’s continue to bend the arc towards greater and greater justice. And Ryan: Keep at the wisdom book!
The whole conversation was great, but one of the most interesting things to me was the discussion around policing your own problems. A point was made to the effect that bad relationships are rarely one-sided, but if each side polices itself, there is a greater chance for reconciliation and progress. I believe this to be true, but what was missed is that each side has to have a certain level of introspection and a willingness to admit they might be wrong. I don't think that either side of the current political divide is particularly great at this, but from one side we are seeing almost no introspection and no willingness to take responsibility for the current state of politics. Until both sides are able to, at a minimum, admit that their behaviors are part of the problem, a solution seems to be out of reach.
In my long life as a leftist, I don’t remember any Democrats engaging in political violence. So I wonder what anyone expects Democrats to police. Opinions? Speech? Or are they expected to police leftists who aren’t Democrats? Donald Trump’s followers are actually Republicans. I don’t see any symmetry.
The assumption is that we are dealing with healthy human beings. Narcissists blame everyone else for problems and never take responsibility for anything. They deflect from their shortcomings by telling you about the failures of others. real or made-up failures. We are not taught to look for this so many people are FOOLED by the narcissist!
I am a subscriber to The Bulwark and to The Daily Stoic. Wonderful to see you come together for this important conversation about how history can repeat itself.
Article Vi, section three of the Constitution - that almost nobody discusses, even now - is a special oath requirement including all Republicans and other state and national-level officeholders. The oaths were written by the Founding Fathers to create a national defense system for Constitutional government, against an understanding of history in which Brutus, Cassius, Cato the Younger, and others were heroes and Julius Caesar, a Trump-like ambitious demagogue, was Satan. Nobody is invoking these oaths, - nor their activation mechanisms - that require many Trump-supporting and Trump-enabling office holders to remember what they said, engage the active verbs, and stop the damage.
The Constitution is a designed and complex machine for a Republican form of democracy to secure liberty and benefits of democracy while keeping the wrong people - ambitious demagogues like Donald Trump and organized minority factions - from hard-charging and manipulating themselves into control of all three branches of national government and dictatorship. If George Washington and his associates faced Donald Trump's invasion of the Capitol and other coup plotting, their responses would not have been Stoic! Cato delivered his Four Orations Against Cataline when Cataline and his faction plotted to invade the Senate chamber and assassinate Cataline's enemies. Unlike Mitch McConnell, Cato personally escorted the captured conspirators to their execution when "they were hung and their necks broken" in Salust's vivid phrase, in a book admired and widely recommended by John Adams. Cicero's classic discussion of tyrannicide, citing violated public oaths, led to the death of English kings in history known to the Founding Fathers. The Constitution's framers took the power and implications of the Constitution's oaths seriously. Their design tries mightily to save American Constitutional government from demagogues like Trump without violence - keeping them from office, separating power with checks and balances, omitting political parties from discussion in the Constitution and its system, impeachment, and - ultimately - the uniting, failsafe oaths throughout the nation to transcend partisan loyalties and stop people like Trump. It's overdue to ask Mike Johnson and all Republican office-holders across the land, "Didn't you take an oath . . .?" LE
What a great point. Of course they all took the oath of office. And when the new congress members come in Jan will they also have to swear they will defend the constitution. Maybe lawyers could be present to explain their responsibility to accept the election results.
Thank you John, I would also vote for you if I were in NY. I am kicking myself as I thought to contact Harris campaign and suggest Seth Godin, Tim Ferriss and Ryan as men who are great influence on young men. All of them talk about values however I was thinking they might not be political. I was wrong. Ryan has a bookstore in a small town in Texas and has a young family. He has written many books even about parenting. Get on his email list reading list and you can order books directly from him. This is an interesting read. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/oct/28/the-stoicism-secret-how-ryan-holiday-became-a-silicon-valley-guru
Ancient wisdom meets modern crisis - this dialogue reminds us that democracy lives through individual virtue. Our votes matter, but our daily moral choices shape our republic's soul.
I like to tell people that I am a perfectly faithful stoic - until something happens that I do not like. This podcast, being grounded in stoicism, is by far the most helpful that I have listened to in recent weeks. I have this prediction about the upcoming election that I strongly belief is true and the main reason I have for supporting Harris: If Vice President Harris fails to obtain a constitutional electoral majority to win the Presidency (excluding a 2000-like Florida-like scenario), Vice President Harris will give a concession speech and then, on January sixth, she personally, a President of the Senate, will count the electoral votes and certify her opponents victory without incident. I am supporting Harris, because I believe this is true - and disillusionment is not enough to describe how I would feel if that does not turn out to be true. If the election results are the opposite of that, and Harris wins, I am equally confident that Donald Trump will do the opposite. He will never give a concession speech and will continue to breath out his fascistic anti-democratic lies that have already taken root in the minds of tens of millions of his beguiled followers and which would then continue to incite violent crimes against our republic - even until his last breath. (Can a stoic write that? Would a Cato have written that?) If Trump wins and Harris concedes as I described here, then if we can learn and apply anything from the stoics, then maybe we should focus on the concession speech and Harris presiding over the peaceful transfer of power and then politely ask Trump supporters "Do you honestly think Donald Trump would have, if the situation was reversed, conceded?" Could that be a powerful argument? Maybe we need to stop trying to appeal to emotion because Trump's followers already have plenty of that, and many of us may already have too much of that. Maybe our objective should be to get those among his supporters who are still reachable to also stop emoting - and maybe start thinking again. If we become the voices of reason - maybe some will listen? Might that be an example of what Marcus Aurelius meant by "acting with courage, discipline, justice and wisdom"?
I have always said that folks on the liberal/left/progressive side need to become a little more stoic in the face of the absurdity that we are living through today. More rational. More able to understand what they can and cannot control. Less reactive and more mindful before taking actions.
Perhaps the first step would be to walk away from the popular social media platforms which floods the universe with craziness of all sorts.
The smoke from hair and wigs being lit on fire every time Trump or any other politician passes gas or belches is hazardous for our health. 9 years of continuous outrage of the hour has done nothing to move the needle away from Trump and may have actually empowered him. At any rate he has been living rent free in the minds of many.
I once heard that if one focuses on the problem the problem gets bigger and if one focuses on the solution the solution gets bigger.
Actually the Founders designed the Electoral College (and the selection of electors) to prevent anyone like Trump from ever having a chance to be in the Executive Office. It is obvious that the Electoral College has failed to do its alleged work and occasionally only works to nullify the will of the people rather than prevent demagogues and other corrupt persons from taking power.
The only sure solution to stopping demagogues is illustrated in a number of plays by Shakespeare. But such bold action is unthinkable in our day and age.
We shall see in a few days if the Trump outrage helped or hurt. I think the outrage of all Trump's insane acts of the last month has hurt him. And may tip the scales. As a Wisconsin resident, I am absolutely appalled that he gave speech during his rally here Friday where he was pissed off because the microphone wasn't working correctly, and he simulated two sex acts on the microphone. Look it up. I know what I saw. This is disgusting. I can't walk away from the outrage and just say I don't care.
I said "a little more stoic" not indifferent! Even if he loses he will still have considerable power over half the country. I heard about his sex act on stage. But I don't ever watch Trump do anything. I turn off any extensive coverage of him on TV and don't read articles about him in the paper. I cast my vote on Thursday and I am sure it will be days, if not weeks, before we know who wins the election. So, no I will not watch the election returns on election night. It would only produce anxiety over something about which I have no control.
And then there was Ronnie!
Excellent podcast.I am a family historian with some famous ancestors starting from 1653 New Utrecht Brooklyn and Rev War .To understand life under Tyranny and under a Kings rule.
Try visiting Brooklyn “ Prison Ship monument “ in Fort Green and over 11,500 Rev War prisoners perished and left to rot in British Prison ships off Brooklyns Fort Green . Took 75 years to recover the buried dead from the shallow grave along the East River.
And under British rule the occupation of Long Island was brutal and ruthless. If you wonder why the Bill of Rights was written. It was from the abuse of living under British Tyranny's.
The Hessian were nicer!
William Buckley strongly advocated shedding the extremists from the conservative movement at a time when pretty much the entire left seemed to endorse, or at least to tolerate, "pas d'ennemis a gauche" thinking. Any lesson from that for today is surely fogged up by the redefining of the word "conservative", but it's worth remembering at least.
Wouldn't Cromwell's protectorate have been fresher in the minds of the Founders? Wouldn't he, and his effective abolishing of Parliament when it got too inconvenient, have been the far more relevant example of a demagogue?
I didn't live in the late 1700s, nor have I read much history specifically addressing the period which wasn't focused on setting the stage for the Civil War, but I figure the Founders were far warier of a Cromwell than any King Charles, Charles, William, or George.
Good luck on Tuesday, John.
Thanks for the interview with Ryan. He and Robert Greene are the ones that got me reading history and biographies. What he says about the founders and Roman/Greek influence is covered pretty well by Tom Ricks in “First Principles.” One thing I found odd was the number of Scottish tutors.
“one of the problems with studying history is that it can lead you to despair because you see how bad things could potentially get. The other thing is it makes you go, oh, at least it's not as bad as then, right?”
Funny that Ryan says that. I’ve been reading a lot of Alan Taylor’s books and that thought occurs to me frequently. Not to minimize things nowadays. But, our history has been pretty brutal. Even during my lifetime there’s been the fight for civil rights and campus unrest of the 60s with 4 deaths at Kent State.
Nonetheless, let’s continue to bend the arc towards greater and greater justice. And Ryan: Keep at the wisdom book!
Anyone else find Cato the younger a tiresome, self-promoting bore?
What does the Stoic say about a candidate who pantomimes oral and manual sex acts at a political rally?
Gotta give Trump credit for preparing for prison when he loses.
Nothing.
Another excellent episode from John Avlon. Thank you!
The whole conversation was great, but one of the most interesting things to me was the discussion around policing your own problems. A point was made to the effect that bad relationships are rarely one-sided, but if each side polices itself, there is a greater chance for reconciliation and progress. I believe this to be true, but what was missed is that each side has to have a certain level of introspection and a willingness to admit they might be wrong. I don't think that either side of the current political divide is particularly great at this, but from one side we are seeing almost no introspection and no willingness to take responsibility for the current state of politics. Until both sides are able to, at a minimum, admit that their behaviors are part of the problem, a solution seems to be out of reach.
I did like the idea of exile though. :)
In my long life as a leftist, I don’t remember any Democrats engaging in political violence. So I wonder what anyone expects Democrats to police. Opinions? Speech? Or are they expected to police leftists who aren’t Democrats? Donald Trump’s followers are actually Republicans. I don’t see any symmetry.
The assumption is that we are dealing with healthy human beings. Narcissists blame everyone else for problems and never take responsibility for anything. They deflect from their shortcomings by telling you about the failures of others. real or made-up failures. We are not taught to look for this so many people are FOOLED by the narcissist!
I am a subscriber to The Bulwark and to The Daily Stoic. Wonderful to see you come together for this important conversation about how history can repeat itself.
Article Vi, section three of the Constitution - that almost nobody discusses, even now - is a special oath requirement including all Republicans and other state and national-level officeholders. The oaths were written by the Founding Fathers to create a national defense system for Constitutional government, against an understanding of history in which Brutus, Cassius, Cato the Younger, and others were heroes and Julius Caesar, a Trump-like ambitious demagogue, was Satan. Nobody is invoking these oaths, - nor their activation mechanisms - that require many Trump-supporting and Trump-enabling office holders to remember what they said, engage the active verbs, and stop the damage.
The Constitution is a designed and complex machine for a Republican form of democracy to secure liberty and benefits of democracy while keeping the wrong people - ambitious demagogues like Donald Trump and organized minority factions - from hard-charging and manipulating themselves into control of all three branches of national government and dictatorship. If George Washington and his associates faced Donald Trump's invasion of the Capitol and other coup plotting, their responses would not have been Stoic! Cato delivered his Four Orations Against Cataline when Cataline and his faction plotted to invade the Senate chamber and assassinate Cataline's enemies. Unlike Mitch McConnell, Cato personally escorted the captured conspirators to their execution when "they were hung and their necks broken" in Salust's vivid phrase, in a book admired and widely recommended by John Adams. Cicero's classic discussion of tyrannicide, citing violated public oaths, led to the death of English kings in history known to the Founding Fathers. The Constitution's framers took the power and implications of the Constitution's oaths seriously. Their design tries mightily to save American Constitutional government from demagogues like Trump without violence - keeping them from office, separating power with checks and balances, omitting political parties from discussion in the Constitution and its system, impeachment, and - ultimately - the uniting, failsafe oaths throughout the nation to transcend partisan loyalties and stop people like Trump. It's overdue to ask Mike Johnson and all Republican office-holders across the land, "Didn't you take an oath . . .?" LE
What a great point. Of course they all took the oath of office. And when the new congress members come in Jan will they also have to swear they will defend the constitution. Maybe lawyers could be present to explain their responsibility to accept the election results.
I doubt the Trumpistas care what oath they took.
Thank you John, I would also vote for you if I were in NY. I am kicking myself as I thought to contact Harris campaign and suggest Seth Godin, Tim Ferriss and Ryan as men who are great influence on young men. All of them talk about values however I was thinking they might not be political. I was wrong. Ryan has a bookstore in a small town in Texas and has a young family. He has written many books even about parenting. Get on his email list reading list and you can order books directly from him. This is an interesting read. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/oct/28/the-stoicism-secret-how-ryan-holiday-became-a-silicon-valley-guru
Ancient wisdom meets modern crisis - this dialogue reminds us that democracy lives through individual virtue. Our votes matter, but our daily moral choices shape our republic's soul.
Inspirational
I like to tell people that I am a perfectly faithful stoic - until something happens that I do not like. This podcast, being grounded in stoicism, is by far the most helpful that I have listened to in recent weeks. I have this prediction about the upcoming election that I strongly belief is true and the main reason I have for supporting Harris: If Vice President Harris fails to obtain a constitutional electoral majority to win the Presidency (excluding a 2000-like Florida-like scenario), Vice President Harris will give a concession speech and then, on January sixth, she personally, a President of the Senate, will count the electoral votes and certify her opponents victory without incident. I am supporting Harris, because I believe this is true - and disillusionment is not enough to describe how I would feel if that does not turn out to be true. If the election results are the opposite of that, and Harris wins, I am equally confident that Donald Trump will do the opposite. He will never give a concession speech and will continue to breath out his fascistic anti-democratic lies that have already taken root in the minds of tens of millions of his beguiled followers and which would then continue to incite violent crimes against our republic - even until his last breath. (Can a stoic write that? Would a Cato have written that?) If Trump wins and Harris concedes as I described here, then if we can learn and apply anything from the stoics, then maybe we should focus on the concession speech and Harris presiding over the peaceful transfer of power and then politely ask Trump supporters "Do you honestly think Donald Trump would have, if the situation was reversed, conceded?" Could that be a powerful argument? Maybe we need to stop trying to appeal to emotion because Trump's followers already have plenty of that, and many of us may already have too much of that. Maybe our objective should be to get those among his supporters who are still reachable to also stop emoting - and maybe start thinking again. If we become the voices of reason - maybe some will listen? Might that be an example of what Marcus Aurelius meant by "acting with courage, discipline, justice and wisdom"?
I have always said that folks on the liberal/left/progressive side need to become a little more stoic in the face of the absurdity that we are living through today. More rational. More able to understand what they can and cannot control. Less reactive and more mindful before taking actions.
Perhaps the first step would be to walk away from the popular social media platforms which floods the universe with craziness of all sorts.
The smoke from hair and wigs being lit on fire every time Trump or any other politician passes gas or belches is hazardous for our health. 9 years of continuous outrage of the hour has done nothing to move the needle away from Trump and may have actually empowered him. At any rate he has been living rent free in the minds of many.
I once heard that if one focuses on the problem the problem gets bigger and if one focuses on the solution the solution gets bigger.
Actually the Founders designed the Electoral College (and the selection of electors) to prevent anyone like Trump from ever having a chance to be in the Executive Office. It is obvious that the Electoral College has failed to do its alleged work and occasionally only works to nullify the will of the people rather than prevent demagogues and other corrupt persons from taking power.
The only sure solution to stopping demagogues is illustrated in a number of plays by Shakespeare. But such bold action is unthinkable in our day and age.
We shall see in a few days if the Trump outrage helped or hurt. I think the outrage of all Trump's insane acts of the last month has hurt him. And may tip the scales. As a Wisconsin resident, I am absolutely appalled that he gave speech during his rally here Friday where he was pissed off because the microphone wasn't working correctly, and he simulated two sex acts on the microphone. Look it up. I know what I saw. This is disgusting. I can't walk away from the outrage and just say I don't care.
I said "a little more stoic" not indifferent! Even if he loses he will still have considerable power over half the country. I heard about his sex act on stage. But I don't ever watch Trump do anything. I turn off any extensive coverage of him on TV and don't read articles about him in the paper. I cast my vote on Thursday and I am sure it will be days, if not weeks, before we know who wins the election. So, no I will not watch the election returns on election night. It would only produce anxiety over something about which I have no control.