This is not a moment for a politician's origin story or soaring oratory. Some think that means dancing with the one that brung ya. But maybe it’s a moment for someone who could prosecute the case against Donald Trump—making it a perfect time to reintroduce Kamala Harris to voters. Elaina Plott Calabro and Bakari Sellers join Tim Miller.
show notes
Re: "That's never happened in the history of history. I'm the most powerful person in the world. I'm going to go home and I'm going to give it to this black woman. You have to point out a historical example where that's happened."
Bakari said this wouldn't happen because no White man would ever turn over the most powerful position in the world to a Black woman. When I heard this, I was horrified. How could anyone be so blinded by whatever this is to think that? And now Joe Biden has just done it. First time in the history of history.
Tim, it'd be good to go back to him and get something like, what? I dunno. Something. A comment? Seems like when you're this spectacularly wrong, you ought to say something, right?
In regard to his “fan fiction” comments, how does Bakari like his crow served?
Unconscious bias
That’s what I heard when listening to this pod (my first since the Thursday debate).
Except the bias against Biden is full on conscious bias.
Yay! I didn't need my biteguard for this one.
Okay, Imo, Biden didn't get "his ass kicked at the debate" because that would mean Trump won. Both men did badly but Biden did so in a more alarming way (visual + gaffes vs Trump's word salad).
"like"
Sellers is an unimpressive guest. Yes, Biden won the primaries (before whatever neurological event occurred that he has apparently suffered). Simone Biles is the best gymnast in America; maybe in the world. She's on our Olympics team, selected fair and square by the U.S. Olympics people. Let's say - god forbid! - she were to break her leg today. Would she insist on going to Paris and competing on crutches? I understand, different selection process, but bottom line, she would not be fit to represent her country, and she would know it. Neither is Biden, but he clearly does not understand. Perhaps he is no longer mentally capable of understanding the situation. Did Sellers not watch that cringeworthy "It is all about me!" interview with George Stephanopoulos? Has he not heard George Clooney, who has been Biden's good friend for a long time, say that at a mid-June fundraiser the Biden he saw and spoke with was the same Biden we all saw in the debate? So the debate was not a one-off. President Washington stepped down from power voluntarily; that should be Biden's touchstone. Instead, Biden is apparently aiming to emulate Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and we all know how RBG's decision panned out. This not about Biden! Heaven help America if that stubborn prideful old man can't be made to face reality. I am looking at you, Jill Biden.
Bakari is gaslighting us. The whole 'we can't do anything about it' is just bs. 'Who you gonna pick?' is bs as Tim immediately said, 'Kamala', and 'it's never happened before' is bs as LBJ resigned.
Really disappointing segment. Felt like pure spin. "When has a person voluntarily given up the most powerful office in the world?" Well...Nixon? Johnson? Cincinnatus? The first two were not happy about it but they read the writing on the wall. And Cincinnatus? He is still revered for stepping down and has a mid-sized city with a pretty good football team named after him! And also...who cares? "There is no offramp"? Sure there is! It's weird and messy but her name is Kamala, there is a process and we're all pretty sure she still wants the job. Also our current path leads to certain defeat so what the hell, right?
Mostly, I got the sneaking suspicion that he doesn't REALLY believe what he's saying either. And that kind of ticked me off.
I do find myself largely disagreeing with Bakari’s position here, for many of the reasons Tim outlined. But his comment about giving up power (granted not to a black woman in this case, but very relevant to Biden) made me wonder if anyone has tried making the case that indeed an all powerful Pope, Benedict XVI, retired - virtually unheard of and resulted in questions regarding the possibility of multiple power centers in the Catholic Church as popes are popes for life, etc. Benedict retired in his mid 80s citing his declining health, and lived a peaceful life until his death in 22. I wonder if this wouldn’t be a fitting example for a Catholic President Biden.
When has a person voluntarily given up the most powerfuld office in the world? Lyndon Johnson in 1968. Humphrey came close to winning the popular vote and, with today's map have come very close to, if not winning, the electoral college.
I don't know that Bakari is gas lighting. He is being realistic about what is happening though. Before Biden came out to tell us that only the Almighty could make him step down most people felt that the only workable way would be for him to make the choice himself. Now that he has said he isn't going anywhere I think the reason you are starting to see Democrats get behind him is they know it's going to be a real cluster f if its a free for all. There will be no organized team meeting where people agree on the nominee. They are going to be looking like the Republicans picking a new speaker and creating pissed off factions. The time to actually challenge Biden was to get in the primaries and no one stepped up. If they didn't do it then they probably not going to force him out now.
I was listening to your conversation with Bakari Sellers. He was talking about Essence Fest(?) and how black women will surely vote for Biden. I think this misses the point. While Biden needs to get every registered Democrat, he also needs a decent share of white, non-affiliated voters, especially in places like PA. He did that in 2020. I’d like to hear more about what non-Democrat Biden 2020 voters have to say about what they are thinking re: 2024, especially in swing states. If someone else has a handle on this, please point me there.
Spin, spin, spin. Tim Miller is right and people need to stand up before it is too late.
Bakari's comment that no white man has given up power for a black woman - is supremely sad but entirely accurate. This is the argument that makes me believe Joe won't step down.
I've never believed Biden would step down, but I discount that Kamala Harris as opposed to some white guy as a potential choice to replace him on the ticket makes much difference. This seemed to me to be just another of Bakari's weird bank shot comments that doesn't pass the pressure test. Biden was always stubborn and prickly about his image. Now he's old, stubborn and prickly about his image. Absent some kind of catastrophic event like a seizure or total freeze up, I predict he'll hang on and get through the convention as the nominee. And after that? I'm preparing for the worst.
What enrages me is the fatalism that while it's never happened, that it never will. Lots of things never happened - until they did! See 2008 when we elected a Black man president. Or 2020, when a woman - a Black woman - became VP. A woman was elected Speaker of the House - twice! Several woman have been confirmed to the Supreme Court.
In the end, we all know we're really voting for Kamala for president, because very few of us think Joe will finish another term. But I'd sure like to see him get off his high horse, acknowledge reality and give her the opportunity to get up on stage and make her case. She would shred Trump in a debate.
Everything Bakari says here sounds like spin to me. I didn't hear a theory of the case to convince independent voters (many of whom who now apparently look back on the Trump years fondly, based on polling) to vote for Biden. Go out and register more voters isn't going to cut it. The people to convince aren't the ones Bakari is talking to who will do anything to stop Trump--they're the ones in Sarah's focus groups.
I agree that Bakari's comments were largely unhelpful. But I disagree about what's the best path forward if Biden remains the nominee (which I'm guessing he will). Only increasing the potential base of Democratic voters who see defeating Trump as the most urgent and important thing will have any chance of success. When you listen to independent or Trump-Biden or Clinton-Trump or any other kind of voters (except 2 time Trump voters-they are lost) in Sarah's FGs, you realize they are largely already justifying their upcoming vote for Trump by memory-holing Trump's various crimes in office and saying everything was "better" under Trump. Relying on them or trying to tip them to Biden is a waste of effort.
It’s too late to pick someone else. It’s time to stop criticizing the Dems choice and start talking about the disastrous results of another Trump administration. Get on board with Biden or watch our country go down in flames. I’m sick of hearing how old he is. He’s old but not stupid. He can do the job and if he leaves office for whatever reason Kamala can handle the job
Hey Tim--The Ohio Ballot access thing--I am confused if the deadline is still August 7 or if it'snow Aug 23. This article suggests the latter, but people are still talking about the former, including Mr. Sellers in this pod.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ohio-lawmakers-convene-special-session-ensure-biden-2024/story?id=110608254
Seems to me this is a really important thing to clear up, as well as to find out if Dems current plan is still a virtual roll call or not
Yeah Ohio is not an issue I just had limited time with him and didn’t want to get bogged down in that
Came here to say the same thing--I don't know why people are still repeating this thing about Ohio when it's not true. They changed the law. The only justification for still having the early roll call I've seen is that Republicans could sneakily change the law after the convention but before it goes into effect. But there doesn't seem to be any reason to believe that, given that they called a special session specifically to change this law.
Bakari brought no facts to his argument. This is the same wishful thinking that the president is using. Ignore data and go on feelings. This is 2016 thinking.
Bakari is gaslighting you. 'There is no other choice.' Of course there is. Like you say, 'Kamala'
Then he says 'No one has ever done that.' Number 1: WRONG. LBJ did it. No. 2 'Who the f cares if no one has ever done that.' And this whole 'we need to get registering'. Who cares????? We have a candidate who can't make a case against a man who attacked the United States of America. He can't make a case. It's important to make the case! Not this facile b.s. 'we just have to vote'. NO! We have to worry about swing voters in 4 states. Get real, man.
What I would love to be reading: a hack of DNC servers now. Oh, the drama! Oh, the tears and anguish! Face it, folks, with Biden we are heading for disaster in November.
Thought this was a super interesting conversation. I know which side I’m on but I appreciated the back and forth and the ability to explore, challenge, and discuss without being contentious. This is Tim’s superpower. It opened my eyes in new ways to some ways that others are thinking about things.
shoot, i found myself yelling at my speaker w the roll-over-accept-what-we-have argument from bakari. he sounded just as flippant as biden did during abc interview.. the laughing while agreeing w tim that Biden isn’t doing well but we just gotta go w it….
sure is a stark contrast to the message of how incredibly serious this election is!
This whole 'we can't do anything about it' is bull! Of course they can.
I’ve had to stop listening to all the news and these podcasts. Not one media outlet has talked about all the lies Trump told at the debate as well as he continues to do so. I’m voting for Biden as even though he is old, as he has a very competent administration and will continue to have one.
Both CNN and MSNBC talked about Trump's lies. They also talked about how Biden failed to call out the lies.
New subscriber. Gotta say that I found the case for fairly unpersuasive in large part because it assumes that we plucked the Democratic Party of the party tree and it is in an unchangeable state of nature.
And … no? Every point had an easy answer to identify (lol if not Joe who — Kamala?) but let’s pretend they didn’t. What’s stopping the movers and shakers in the Democratic Party from doing tabletop exercises to identify the work that needs to be done between now and the convention — and it doesn’t need to just poke at the replacement thesis. It can also identify the most effective paths forward for Biden himself.
I don’t have all the answers. This isn’t my full time job, but the risk calculus clearly changed between two weeks ago and today, and I’m tired of the slumped shoulder, status quo bias the Democrats have. I can be persuaded that Biden is, on balance, the better bet. What I can’t abide is the position of “Well, there’s nothing we can do.” We simply don’t know that.
And not for nothing, if “This hasn’t happened before in history” is considered a good rebuttal, then let’s not bother with this entire democratic project altogether.
1. LBJ withdrew in 1968
2. 'There's nothing we can do' is NOT a good argument. I get this a lot with the Electoral College and the filibuster. It's not a defense. It's garbage.
3. Get rid of Biden. I can accept losing if we have someone who can stand up and make the case against Trump. Biden is NOT doing that.
So, there's a thing called the Biden presidency. It is performing competently. I don't know if that's Biden making decisions or Biden's people making decisions. I don't care. I will not vote for Donald Trump. However, the thing called the Biden candidacy...that ain't working. And Sarah and JVL are correct. The voters will not look past a "health event" and vote for that president. Much love to Bakari, but we have enough information now to know that he will not beat DJT. So, we have to make a change. The math is not hard. The fantasy politics are being performed by people who think that Biden will close a nine-point gap. He won't. And it will be painful watching him NOT close it. I will vote for "Not-DJT". I will campaign for "Not-DJT". And if that's Joe Biden, DJT will lose. I am part of Sarah's coalition: "against DJT."
No one in the country cares about the policies you have achieved. If you make a compelling case against Trump you can win. Biden can't make the case. He is unable to do it.
90 seconds in, had to turn it off.
It took me a few more minutes, but ditto.
Stand your ground Tim! The Fantasy Fiction here is that Biden is fit to be President, now or in the future. Anyone who has seen Parkinsonism in a loved one recognized his condition well over a year ago. It’s a difficult thing to come to terms with but for such a an important position, he’s just not fit. My own mother characterized herself this way: I was the top of my class and now I’m an idiot. Harsh and overstated but with more than a grain of truth. Biden simply isn’t cognitively fit to be President and this condition has nowhere to go but down. Wake up people!
The President's doctor said Biden doesn't have Parkinson's back in February.
Correct, he wouldn’t know, definitively. Parkinsonism is a group of conditions (including Parkinson’s and Lewy Body diseases) that can only be determined post-mortem by an autopsy.
90 seconds in. byebye
There are alternatives. We’re in a tough situation.
Great pod, Tim. Thanks. Don't agree with Mr Sellers and rather bemused to learn he has never heard of George Washington or Lyndon Johnson. (White men who walked away from the chance to be re-elected to the most powerful job in the world) Sadly, Joe Biden is demonstrating he has neither the wison nor the humility of President Washington. As JVL would say, Good Luck America.
Bakari is completely wrong in taking the position that Biden's fitness to do the job is measured by his accomplishments up until now. Biden is greatly diminished physically and mentally; gainsaying that is willful blindness. As Tim correctly points out, Biden's primary job is to beat Trump. Is he up to that task is the only thing worth caring about. If he is, he needs to start showing it.
I really got annoyed with Bakari -and his dismissive “people are engaging in fantasy fiction” talk. Almost as annoying with AOC’s “the matter is closed.” And I disagree with his point that Biden must either RESIGN or continue to run, and that he can’t just step aside as a candidate. Of course he can, and he would be able to explain why, whether on political grounds and an honest recognition that he will not be the best person for the job in 2-4 years . I don’t think he WILL but he could.
I’ve still yet to hear a sound explanation why choosing a new candidate at the convention is not feasible. I’ve heard reasoned arguments why the candidate that comes out of it may not have a good chance of winning, but not why it’s not doable. Bakari smugly ridiculed the idea out of hand.
Tim you are right! Your first guest is acting as it is 2016: let’s register more people to vote (I am one of those he is talking about, l am waiting until last possible time as a fist time voter so I don’t get called for jury duty. Sorry fellow citizens, I am working 3 jobs, I don’t have the bandwidth to even call to get out of jury dury), blah, blah, blah. It reminds me of a date in 2016 at a brewery in Denver when I told my husband friend group of highly educated people in press, education and academia that if my walks with the secretaries coworkers at a school district in West Denver had any validity, Trump would win (that was my little personal focus group). I was pretty much told that I knew nothing (“You chose to stay a foreigner, you don’t understand American politics,” literal quote) and that if anything the county I was working at was getting more Democrat. I must admit that I enjoy telling them I told you so since then. Biden can’t afford to lose people on the margins, and the day of the elections the couch may look a lot more appealing. You can’t tell people to shut up and vote because they know better. That never works.
Tim, I'm looking forward to you interviewing Elie!
Hi Tim-I really enjoyed this pod. I love Bakari Sellers and, admittedly, he best represents my point of view right now. I think he’s realistic and pragmatic. I really appreciated the civil dialogue between your differing viewpoints. Hope he comes back soon. Whatever happens in the next weeks and months, I hope a laser focus emerges that bonds all the divideds: the democracy candidate vs Trump.
You're starting to sound like a broken record Tim because you are not getting the answer you want. It is becoming clear the only acceptable answer is for Biden to step aside. I think it's time for you to be honest about that and stop asking Biden to do something you'll never accept.
I was surprised there was no talk of Kamala's role on Roe. Maybe i missed it, but I didn't get a sense of the time period of this interview.
K has been killing it on abortion and was put out front by Biden to do just that - she's the administration's face and voice on arguably the most important issue of the election - so not sure how that fits into that narrative. Also i recommend listening to her speech today in Nevada.
It's either Biden or Harris. There's no other choice. He gets grace and space and to finish out the NATO summit. Nothing should be decided before Trump picks his VP. If Biden can't bounce back he'll hear it She'll be there ready to take over and the VP can be picked at the convention. As you and Jon Stewart reminded us - we've got time.
No matter what, we will all march forward with war paint, righteousness, and kick the fascist's ass.
I found it telling that Sellers didn't engage on Tim's question on if Biden's main job is whether he can beat Trump, instead saying it is whether he can serve until 2029. No it isn't! Unfortunately, Tim didn't push him on this. Biden's main task is whether he can beat Trump on the first Tuesday in November. Right now, things aren't looking great.
For the Bulwark subscribers, I'm much more with Mona and JVL on their "Just Between Us" episode from this afternoon.
Dodging questions, gaslighting, the works.
I’m amazed. I keep wondering if I’m in my own silo with the Bulwarkers and others, but I don’t think so. Bakari Sellers is committing fraud of a near-Republican level grade. Astonishing to hear Democrats sounding like Republicans in defense of their guy.
Keep speaking the truth Tim. The election is going to be decided by low info voters in 6 states that f don’t follow politics.
He is..clearly.. no longer that person. Check the tapes.
I have a serious question: if a Presidential candidate dies prior to the election after having been nominated, what happens? I have heard the pros and cons of replacing Biden. From some, I have heard that due to Ohio’s laws, we can’t replace Biden even if he so chose. So, I pose the question, what if a candidate dies, no matter who it is?
I think the answer is we don't know. Presumably, the party would scramble to pick someone, and they'd have to get them on ballots somehow, and the later in the campaign the more complicated things get since voting starts so early, but I don't think there is any sort of contingency in place for such an event.
In non-presidential races, during Covid we had at least one Republican running for Congress die of the disease either close to election day or right after, but I think it was before the election, and he won because his district was ruby red, and I believe his wife took his spot.
Thank you for the answer. I do remember that case of the Congressman dying prior to the election or soon thereafter the election. It was in the south. A little disconcerting that there is no contingency in place. Of course, the last 8 years, I feel like we live in bizarro world!
I thought both conversations were awesome. I tend to be where Balari is with respect to the general vibe of the conversation. It’s kind of fantasy politics which gets old but I understand everyone’s angst.
The only way Biden doesn’t get the nomination is if he drops out. He has told us he won’t and I have no reason to not believe him. But maybe I’m wrong. That being said, I don’t understand what the point of having the same conversation over and over unless your goal (not Tim but kind of everyone) is to try and force him out. Now if that is your goal then I get it and maybe it will work. I don’t know.
However Tim keeps wanting Biden to say more about why he can win. He has been telling us. You may not like his answer but he has been giving them. Tim seems to want him to come out and say “you know what you are right I’m unfit and I’m dropping out.” Which is fine to want but just continually asking for the same thing over and over (which he won’t do) seems to miss the point.
I also would like someone to show the evidence that someone other than Biden can win? That’s where this whole argument breaks down. It just seems to me that everyone just says if you prosecute the case better than Valhalla. Maybe that’s true but I don’t believe it. People have been prosecuting the case against Trump for 10 years (sometimes literally). That isn’t the issue. People just don’t care about that (or at least a lot don’t). I also don’t see how any woman, especially a black woman, who prosecutes the case vigorously against Trump doesn’t watch her negatives skyrocket. Hope I’m wrong.
Like Balar I also believe that the only other candidate is Kamala given the timing. I know a lot will disagree and that’s fine but that’s where I am. I just don’t think people realize who would choose and what a shitshow it will be. I think people think that this is just going to be a beauty contest. It will not. It will be a knife fight because otherwise why run? If it isn’t a knife fight where you are talking about inflation, Medicare for all, defund the police, unions, voting rights, sanction Israel, etc. how does anyone draw a distinction between themselves and the other candidates, especially Kamala?
Maybe I’m wrong and this doesn’t happen but in that case what is the point? How would you distinguish Kamala, gretch, newsome, Josh s, mayor Pete, etc? It just becomes a game of identity politics…and dems love them some identity politics (which the independents hate).
The Kamala conversation is fascinating. What I kept thinking though “is what did you really expect a Vp to do or say?” I can’t remember a single thing a Vp has done. Why? Because they never out stage the president and anything they did do gets attributed to the president. I just don’t understand what people really expected given Biden had almost the exact same policy areas and also failed at all of them.
Like, every VP is basically useless in reality outside of Dick Cheney - there's a reason why Garner compared it to a warm bucked of piss.
lol. Yep. And Cheney is only viewed in retrospect. No one in 2004 or 2008 had any love or hate for Cheney. It was all directed at bush…well other than when he shot that guy in the face ;-)
Oh, and to say Joe hasn't made a sufficient case against Trump because he's too busy fighting folks on his own team is ludicrous. It's his failure to adequately campaign against Trump and his abject failure at The Debate that brought this on. And Biden has simultaneously done too little to convince the public that The Debate was an aberration while fighting his critics than he has shown against Trump or in support of his own candidacy.
Re money- why cant the Biden campaign return the donations to the donors, who could then donate that returned cash to the new nominee?
According to veteran political strategist Mike Murphy, he can.
Enjoyed being frustrated by the #ridinwithBiden perspective and found it not at all compelling:
Won't vs. Shouldn't Withdraw: It's ultimately Biden's decision, but we (the pro-democracy coalition) can shape the probability of whether he will or won't withdraw. Pushing withdrawal does have a cost and influence is not absolute, but it's simply not true that we can't influence Biden's calculus (okay not me per se, but prominent Dems, who can be influenced to try to influence Biden).
Biden Can Still Win: These arguments, including the "reverse coattails" point, may be true but are NOT arguments for Biden; they apply to any Dem! Question is who is most competitive?
Infrastructure & Logistics: A genuine but addressable concern. Bakari's points on money and ballot access seem to be factually wrong or overstated. Harris would inherit everything so the point would be completely moot. Alternatively, the Whitmer PA/MI/WI strategy limits the core infrastructure needed, and her regional infrastructure is likely strong; money won't be an issue.
Is Biden Capable?: Pointing to Biden's accomplishments doesn't prove his fitness for a second term. Tom Brady was a great quarterback, but he doesn't deserve to be the starting QB in the Super Bowl today (to extrapolate on Fetterman's argument for Biden). The fact that Bakari can't unequivocally say he has confidence in Biden's capacity to be President is exactly why Biden is unlikely to be able to convince swing voters to support him. We can do better!
OMG, the reverse coattails! Tammy Baldwin can help Biden in WI? I've NEVER heard a political strategist say such a thing. Tim said he would have someone with actual political experience. Sellers' only political experience is being an elected official. I was hoping for someone with political communications and strategy experience. Sellers does not have that. That is why he was wrong about the $$. I felt I was being spinned, not presented with a persuasive argument.
He's a lawyer. He spoke like a politician.
Spin vs. persuasive argument is a great framing, Sandy. I'd love to hear someone make a detailed pro-Biden case about the incumbency advantage, the convention chaos risk, the untested candidate without time to develop their trusted campaign team risk, etc. - all in the context of this Electoral College race as it stands. Please show me the math. I haven't seen that anywhere, and this talking point-level pablum (i.e., spin) doesn't come close to persuasive.
Thx, Alok. The elements of your detailed case are all good ones. Tim, do you know anyone who can do it???
Bakari's not doin' it for me. I disagreed with much of what he said and he failed to convince me. He more so seemed to command me to accept his assertions.
Well put.
Bakari asked like 5 times "when has a powerful white man ever willingly given up power?"
Tim, the answer you should have given was George Washington. Obviously he didn't cede it to a black woman but he could have run a third time and probably remained president but he chose to go home.
There is also LBJ and Teddy Roosevelt who decided against running when they could have had their party’s nomination. James Polk is another example. And that’s just presidents. I mean it’s not unheard of in politics that they retire instead of running until they lose.
I mean that was kind of his point.
It’s intriguing to watch The Bulwark tout so highly a VP they barely said a nice word about until a month ago.
Tim is an exception. He described the VP’s issue as “the yips” and was very sympathetic and hoped she’d get out of her own way. He was right and she did.
Nonetheless, he’s not going to be able to sell her to America. Bakari is 100% correct: POTUS isn’t going anywhere.
He picked her because of a campaign promise. She’s smart and a great speaker but he should never have picked a woman who shivved him during the campaign. The idea that she was more qualified than Susan Rice is insanity.
Obviously if she’s the candidate I’ll support her. I’d also support my dog or three-year-old granddaughter or creamed corn. That’s not the public demand Tim thinks it is.
I'll vote for Biden even if they have to do a "Weekend at Bernie's". But I'd rather not.
I think a lot of the respondents saying yes to the poll asking if Biden is too old will vote for him as well.
Right. It IS up to Biden. And that is why, by still being the nominee, he is being a selfish jerk. He is not capable of carrying the fight to Trump. That is painfully obvious. One hour every other day will not get it done! And throwing that "only I can defeat Trump" b.s. at us is both ridiculous and insulting.( how is it working out so far Joe?) Come on, Dems! Turn the screws! We have a Republic to save!
He’s the only person who has ever beaten Trump.
Sorry but I found Bakari's argument thoroughly unconvincing. It was basically just an assertion that Biden will stay in the race and that there is nothing in the world that is capable of changing his mind, so were stuck with his (likely futile) re-election effort if we want to stop Trump.
But is that REALLY true? Can't sufficient pressure from senior elected democrats, many of whom know that Biden isn't able to beat Trump in 2024, convince him? They at least need to try, even if it comes at a political cost to themselves.
I feel like the entire Democratic party leadership is just sleepwalking into a second Trump term at this point.
Completely agree
Yes it is. The delegates are legally required to vote for Biden (state laws).
Thank God for Balari Sellers.
Joe Biden is fit to finish out his term of office. He may not be "fit" enough to win this campaign. All the polls suggest Joe Biden will lose in November. To suggest that, should Joe decide to NOT run in November, he must resign now is absurd, IMO.
Bakari Sellers is way smarter than me and is obviously correct on most of what he says, but I find the argument "Joe just needed to run against Trump" to be, to quote him, fan fiction in itself because this is exactly the problem: Joe failed miserably running against Trump on that debate stage, and not because of his answers, but because of his frailty. Bakari's answer that Joe will beat Trump because... Trump, then that is one massive gamble.
Yep it’s the gamble with any candidate. They all have weaknesses. Some we know and some we don’t. Shit sando
true but most of those are political which is the place where Trump is at his weakest.
Hmm I’m not sure I understand. Biden’s political issue is age. All other candidates will have worse or better political issues with different demo’s. We just don’t know what they are and if they are surmountable in 4 months.
Joe's problem is a human problem. We look at him and recognise his cognitive decline on a human level. No-one objects or is attacking him on his positions on liberal policies (Gaza the except maybe) so much so that it is recognised he has been one of the greatest liberal presidents of all time. The issue is purely his cognitive decline, and how that effects his ability execute the attack on Trump that is required. The argument that he has done so much good in the last 4 years is used to deflect from the next 4 months. We need Joe from Scranton more now than ever before, but he is failing to meet the moment physically which is way more heart breaking than a political weakness (asleep by 8pm being an example).
Hmm. Ok I feel like you’re making a distinction without a difference. Being a female and black in power is also a political issue but it’s also a human issue (for a LOT of people. So does being gay).
I guess I find the distinction irrelevant but I understand you are trying to draw some distinction. I don’t see it but I understand your point of view.
I understand you think he has cognitive decline. I don’t but I won’t argue with your position because it’s a fair extrapolation from the debate.
Maybe it’s surmountable. Maybe it isn’t no one is doing better so there is definitely more upside with another candidate but also downside. I see both sides. In a vacuum I probably would do the Hail Mary and switch Biden out with Kamala but we don’t live in that world. We solve in a world where we will have 6 weeks of absolute dysfunction between Dems debating Kamala or gretch or Gavin or (pick any person’s favorite candidate) and the other side has a vote. You’ll get a billion dollars or oppo dumped on everyone. It will be a media wet dream.
Bakari rightly points out that nobody can make Joe Biden step aside. He has to make the choice.
To that end, have written the following letter and sent it to the White House. I also copied and sent it to Sherrod Brown, my Senator who is up for re-election this year.
I would encourage others to do something similar if theyfeel so moved.
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Dear Mr. President,
I have been a proud supporter of yours for many years. I have taken no more important vote in my life than when I cast my ballot for you in 2020. Since your inauguration, I have followed your work with interest and consider your first term to be the most impactful of my lifetime.
So it is with great respect and admiration that I write to you today to express my hope that you will graciously step down before the Democratic convention next month.
Though you have served with honor, I believe that to cement your legacy and to do what is best for America, you must allow your capable Vice President to carry forward and prosecute the case against Donald Trump with the eloquence and vigor that time has robbed from you.
The evidence of my own eyes tells me that your capacity is diminished. And empirical data tells us that we are on track to lose the election in November - where the stakes are total.
At risk is not only the presidency but the House, the Senate, and the Supreme Court. The Republic itself stands in the balance.
That sacrifice will be the ultimate act of patriotism. You will have the nation's gratitude in perpetuity and be remembered as a model of servant leadership.
I beseech you put your pride aside and give this final measure of service.
Respectfully yours,
Bethany C. Baldwin
What a wonderful idea!
I just sent the white house a text. There's a link on their website. A letter will be forth coming.
Really well said, Bethany. Gonna use it for my letter. And I'm going to add something from my experience, the day the 2020 election was called for Biden, the Saturday after Election Day. When it was announced, cars started driving down my street and honking. I live two blocks from the business district in my neighborhood. I went down there and there was, as the song "Dancin in the Streets" put it, song and celebration.
Joe, please don't spoil that memory for me!
Well done.
Works for me. Done.
Bakari brought up something I've been saying...if you think he's unfit to run for office right now, you better be calling for his immediate resignation. Otherwise it strikes me as purely political and not out of a concern for the country. Which maybe it is purely political? If that's the case though, just say he's losing and can't win, and don't bring age into the convo.
Exactly. Mark Warner was sooooo concerned he wanted to finish his 4th of July vacation before he met with others.
No, that does not follow. Biden can be fit to be president right now, but (1) not able to campaign, which requires a different skill set, and (2) not certain to remain fit until January of 2029, or even 2026. He's clearly showing a cognitive slow-down. At this time, he is possibly (even probably, I think) still able to think WELL, but there's a fairly high likelihood that any 82 year old will start losing judgment capacity before age 86, and especially if he is beginning to be impaired in other ways.
As a strident Never-Trumper, I care a great deal about (1) and don't care at all about (2). I'm assuming Biden won't quit absent a medical emergency or death. If I'm correct, Biden's job is to beat Trump in November and live until at least after the Electoral College results are certified in January 2025. After that VP Harris can step up as President.
Respectfully disagree, but what do I know.
Bakari was the one who said that if he's not able to campaign, he's not able to govern, so I was really disagreeing with him on that point. As for fitness to govern right now, my point is that someone can be on the early part of the downhill slide, but still quite competent for the time being. (I've seen it in my own family.) I suspect that's true of Biden and if so, it's a reason why he should remove himself from the ticket, but not necessarily resign. But he MiGHT already be at the point of needing to resign. It's a possibility. My point is that if he's even close, he has no business running for another four-year term.
Ok I get your point. I just don't know what the right answer is, on any of it.
Me neither. We're rolling the dice either way.
Joe is NOT prosecuting the case against Donald Trump effectively at all. Biden and his admin are effectively carrying out policy in the US and in the world. He can run his admin and NOT be an effective campaigner. Bakari is simply wrong on this idea.
Well said!
For me, it's not political. I saw what I saw and see what i see. I had to turn away from the debate for a few minutes because of shock and sadness, (being a died in the wool liberal and supporter of Joe) and the GS interview was only slightly better. But you are right, it is not age. My father who was 93 when he died was much more coherent and capable than what I have been seeing from Joe. So to me it's visceral.
So to my point though, do you think Joe should resign immediately?
Yes, he should watch the debate, look at the polls, release his health reports, and resign. It's for moments like this that we have a VP. Though I think Bakari is right, when has a old white dude ever given up his power?
Joe has released his health reports.
perfect. 1 down 3 to go.
Come on liberal you know that isn’t enough. He has to have another exam tomorrow than release the results. And if they are done then you have to get an “independent” doctor, maybe trump’s doctor and then release those results. If those don’t say anything bad then that doctor has to hold a press conference and be convinced why Biden can’t run.
He’s always been completely straightforward with his medical reports. If there were something to report he would.
Yeah I know. It’s a feeding frenzy. There is nothing you can do right now to get them to stop. Only thing is time and trump won’t shut forever.
Maybe Biden needs to release his long form health report.
You know this so I’m stating the obvious: he could have a physical in front of the nation and the people who want him to drop out wouldn’t change their minds.
Let the feeding frenzy continue.
Ok I appreciate your intellecutal honesty. A lot of people have been saying 'well, I think he can be president for the next 6 months, but not the next 4 years' which, if they think he's as bad as they're acting he is, I don't see how that is in good faith.
Yes I think he has done an amazing job as president, but he is, right now, he is in terrible shape and therefore a terrible candidate. And for all the talk of policy successes, if we lose this next election, there will no longer need for any policies. In fact the Chevron ruling took care of that anyway.
Can we blame Bakari Sellers when Biden loses to Trump and our democracy ends?
No, we should blame those people who voted for trump
Here's another view on the $$ reason Sellers has for keeping Biden: Veteran political strategist Mike Murphy says the $$ will not be a problem. Biden can xfer any funds he himself owns to the DNC or a PAC or send them back, to be resent to the DNC. The enthusiasm factor will be so high that donations will flow in to the alternate candidate.
Bakari S is representative of the problem we face. By claiming that it is too late, nothing can be done, Biden must remain the nominee, etc., he and his brethren are gaslighting the American people just as badly as JB is. They are also dividing the Dems when, clearly, unity is needed. Come on, man. Get real. Biden will lose. He can..and should.. step aside.
I agree. There seems to two contradictory assertions here: (1) we have to replace Biden and (2) we can't replace Biden. If those two things are really true, then we are screwed. But I believe that (2) isn't absolute truth. It's not true that "no white man has ever given up that kind of power." LBJ chose not to run in 1968 and there was no assumption that he should resign the presidency when he chose not to run. As for money, I believe that the money will be found. As for state campaign organizations, why can't the Biden orgs become Harris orgs, or Whitmer orgs or whatever? (yes, the money will come from a different source). Also, having worked on presidential campaigns, I know that a lot of the grass-roots work is done by the state Democratic party, not by the candidate's own organization. Claiming that it's too late is just fatalism.
I agree with you. Why would he have to resign? He could just say that he realized he is too old for the vigorous campaign that is needed and he wants to concentrate on running the country.
Wanting to concentrate on peace in Viet Nam is what LBJ said when he declined to run. "With America’s sons in the fields far away, with America’s future under challenge right here at home, with our hopes and the world’s hopes for peace in the balance every day, I do not believe that I should devote an hour or a day of my time to any personal partisan causes or to any duties other than the awesome duties of this office–the Presidency of your country. Accordingly, I shall not seek, and I will not accept, the nomination of my party for another term as your President."
I do find this "He just needs to get out there and fight" to be the problem. He clearly isn't capable of doing that. At least not past 5pm WST.
I disagree. It’s clearly late and probably too late. You can say that you don’t care which is perfectly acceptable but it’s pretty clear a lot of people disagree. There is also no way to take the position from Biden. It’s up to him, entirely.
If you think the Lester Holt interview damned Kamala and that Americans have long memories on that kind of shit then just wait until you see how badly the first debate is going to damn Joe Biden and how long Americans will remember that one.
I think it has nothing to do with her popularity personally. People have an opinion or a vibe then backfill what they think caused it. This is exactly that. She could have killed that interview and her popularity numbers wouldn’t have changed and it would have been forgotten.
It’s partially why people can’t land anything on trump. The reason is why they like him overwhelms what would normally cause them to hate him.
Just my opinion though.
I appreciate Bakari coming on to make the case for Biden, but his reason for sticking with Biden was essentially "he won't drop out anyway". That's not a particularly compelling, affirmative message for a candidate who is down in the polls.
Interesting. I found Bakari unconvincing. I went into this wanting to be convinced, but I wasn't. I've always been a passionate Biden supporter, and I think he's been a great President, and even I think he needs to step down.
Same here. I found his use of "fan fiction" particularly annoying. He WAS being glib (insincere and shallow). What's needed for this audience is reasons and facts, not metaphors.
BTW, while looking up his legal careeer, I found this on Wikipedia: "In response to an incident between a teenager, Nicholas Sandmann, and Native American activist Nathan Phillips at the Lincoln Memorial, Sellers tweeted about the teen: 'He is a deplorable. Some ppl can also be punched in the face.' Sellers deleted the tweet, claiming his comment was 'metaphoric' and 'taken out of context' though he still claimed that the students 'displayed xenophobic, racist behavior.'"
I was expecting Tim to get Simon Rosenberg or Jamelle Bouie. They would have come with reasons and facts.
Agree. Bakari Sellers is a star, but on this, another shrug of the shoulders. The silver lining might be he qualified all of this with "Let's see what happens at the press conference on Thursday" Interesting.
Historical example: George Washington.
Charles V!
Damn it why didn’t I pull that!
I can here to say exactly this. Hat tip to Sarah and her love of Hamilton. https://youtu.be/pEqnXNsAFL8?feature=shared