I would hope that the moderators are more skillful about forming questions than the authors of the article, especially avoiding the embedding of questionable premises. or bad faith framing from the right. But I get that the authors were channeling the right in the formulation of the questions. I do not really expect the moderators to ask better questions.
1) There is nothing contradictory about opposing illegal immigration and allowing illegal immigrants to get driver's licenses. They are here working almost by definition and they will drive, licensed or not, because they have to go to work. It is much much preferred for the sake of public safety that everyone on the road pass both the written test and the driving test. This country is not really serious about ending illegal immigration. If we were, law enforcement would go after the criminal employers breaking the law by hiring them with just as much gusto, and the right would be far more critical of those employers than they are. The suggested answer is perfect.
2) The question is ostensibly about the cost of goods not decreasing at the same pace as the rate of inflation decreased.. In our capitalistic system, the government does not control prices. And when Harris talked about measures against price gouging on food (which Kroger admitted to doing), the same people complaining about the price of eggs took the other side, huffing about how dare she propose government price controls. Again ignoring the narrow bad faith and addressing the big picture improvements over the last three-four years as the suggested answer does is correct.
3) Pretty much the word "socialism" is a dead giveaway of bad faith. On a personal note, I have experienced the free school lunches provided to every student in a few other countries. They were way more nutritious than anything offered in American school cafeterias. I thin a better breakdown of the cost benefit analysis might be in order, but I also understand the people's eyes glaze over when you get into specific numbers. The narrative answer is fine.
4) Serving in a non-combat zone is not necessarily inconsistent with seeing combat. It is possible to carry a weapon of war in or near a war zone without ever being faced with the need to fire at someone. However it appears the Walz did indeed misspeak. The bad faith of the right nitpicking Walz while making egregious statements of their own is appalling and hypocritical. The suggested answer is excellent.
5) The NRA has forfeited their credibility and their rating is irrelevant. I remember when the NRA would have supported banning assault weapons, when their interest was in hunters and marksmanship competitions, NOT ensuring that America's mass shooters are the most well-armed in the world. If Walz is indeed asked these questions, the proposed answers are all great.
It’s important for Governor Walz to not overextend himself tonight. He should not attempt to respond to every smear or insult thrown his way by white nationalist creep Vance.
Instead, Governor Walz should pick his fights carefully, especially. The closing arguments for the Harris-Walz campaign and Governor Walz’s arguments tonight should be about freedom vs fascism, decency versus depravity, and competence vs chaos in America.
Vance has such a large political rap sheet and noxious personality that it is very tempting for anyone debating him to go at him with a sledgehammer. This would be a mistake, in my judgement, because it would completely take away from the positive vision and cheerful disposition of the Harris-Walz campaign. More later.
Finally, a near full-throated concern about what a Vance VP - or more specifically, a VANCE Presidency would mean:
"If you’re worried about the authoritarianism of a second Trump administration, you should be even more worried when you think about the more focused and far-reaching commitment to authoritarianism that Vance will bring to that administration."
I bring you a segment from last night's Rachael Maddow show that actually left her a bit speechless!
Oh, Dear God! I go to the bank, the store, buy groceries and come home after 2.5 hours. And the TV is blaring with some poor general trying to answer questions from a bunch of media types. Paraphrasing: "General Eisenhower, what will you do if the Germans defend Caen? General MacArthur, what will you do to get Manila out of Japanese hands? General Arnold, are you going to bomb the V-2 sites? General . . . " You get the idea. What the bloody hell is WRONG with those journalists????? And soon, we'll be getting crowing by the Orange Snake that none of this would have happened if HE was president!
To paraphrase another WW2 general, sometimes I think God is on the other side! I know I heard it, but I don't know who said it. Could have been a WW2 movie.
Ordinarily I would not pay any attention to a debate between VP candidates. First, no political so-called "debate" I've witnessed comes close to that of the Lincoln-Douglas debates of 1858* or of debates conducted whilst I was a member of Demosthenian Literary Society at UGa (1970-1972).
*I was not present for those debates. I have only read of them through various sources.
The problem with tonight's debate is J.D. Vance. In my view, not because of Vance's catty remarks or his popularity ranking in polling; not even because he is a sycophant of The False Prophet.
Vance's mentor, Peter Thiel, stated in 2009: "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible ... Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women—two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians—have rendered the notion of 'capitalist democracy' into an oxymoron."
If freedom and democracy are incompatible, what?
J.D. Vance stated in 2021 that the U.S. government should be "deleted", replaced by a CEO running a government formed like a joint stock corporation.
This is the point when Vance introduced the "great" (!) social philosopher, Curtis Yarvin. From what I've read, Yarvin's ideas regarding authoritarianism, which he supports, are also filled with dichotomies and contradictions regarding same-sex marriage, drug use, and anti-discrimination laws.
Basically, J.D. Vance is ineligible for elected office to a U.S. government position because, at his core, he wants to eliminate our government in favor of an autocratic CEO.
"J.D. Vance stated in 2021 that the U.S. government should be "deleted", replaced by a CEO running a government formed like a joint stock corporation." That kind of sounds like Huey Long's "My First Days in the White House." Here is a link to an online copy of it. I'm thinking of chapter 5.
I wrote earlier that I was becoming despondent about (gestures wildly) all this. Just stumbled over this not-at-all news related story and it was a very lovely respite, so thought I’d share with y’all. Cheers!
Having gone from "Trump's a Hitler", to "I love Trump", we really don't know what Vance believes in, not a clue beyond that he is an incredible opportunist with no shame whatsoever. Should he be elected, I have little doubt that our constitution will not survive it. I am reasonably assured that migrants seeking a better life won't be here and also that many legally resident people will be purged. I am reasonably assured that our system has really failed us overall and that if Harris does prevail, none of that failure can be made to go away. I do love her spirit but it feels like pushing back the tide.
Climate change will really be our ultimate test as millions head for temperate zones to simply survive. Not just here, but all of northern Europe will see a sea of humanity flood in seeking the promise on the statue of liberty that is promised in so many countries but will fail as millions are killed by the oncoming storm.
So, yeah, I'm despondent this morning. I indeed will watch the playoffs. It's my only solace at this point. I'm seeing friends, whose lives have been destroyed by such a storm in North Carolina and I can't even get in touch with any of them . I can't drive down there. Not a good day.
Chin up, Peter. This too shall pass. You are amongst friends here. Things will get better.
"And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be. And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."
Well, that's what you had at the Bulwark before you even posted, and that's what you got more of in response, so maybe the "rational" thing to do would be to accept the "common ground" that exists and not expect it to coincide 100% with your preferred ground. You're not the first person to ever have been offered support that didn't come in exactly the form you wanted. And anyway that quote is about the most loose, tentative, flexible, nonreligious-friendly quote mentioning God that was ever written.
We're unlikely to "move forward" if we can't show a little tolerance for each others' POVs. Unless we're lucky, life is likely to provide more, not fewer, challenges in this regard in the future, so it'd be a good idea to choose your battles.
I'm sorry you're having a bad day. I wish good luck to your friends in NC.
Both Lance Wallnau and Mike Johnson have deep ties to the New Apostolic Reformation, a leading white Christian nationalist movement. The NAR is committed to establishing a white supremacist theocracy in the United States.
If trump is elected, adherents of far-right religious authoritarianism will stand second and third in line to the presidency.
I think someone needs to do a more thorough explanation of these various cults and sects. I don't know much about them, and would appreciate it. I do know that there have been some insurgent Roman Catholics for a few years, particularly in the US. However, I am old enough to remember the hatred leveled against RCs and I just do not see a coalition between this New Apostolic Reformation, which reportedly reviles the worship of Mary, and any Roman Catholic sect, period. You can't coalesce over abortion, or for control of the state, with those who will point the gun at you the moment they gain power -- at least not if you know what is good for you. According to news sources, Vance became a Roman Catholic within the past year (NYT 8.25.24).
I thought we Americans were against Theocracies? I thought we deplored the Taliban or ISIS or even the Mullahs and Ayatollah running the country like their own personal church. So here we have a part of our own country's political system advocating for what looks like to most as the same kind of thing! Replace the freedom of religion with a government that will use which one you pick as a purity test? And the adherents to the Constitution see nothing wrong with this? The people who support this are attracted to the Wallnaus with their batshit crazy rants? Buying into miracles that they hear about but have no personal knowledge of? Sending 'thoughts and prayers' instead of reality based help? We need to hit the reset button and Nov. 5 seems like a good time to do this. Vote Blue!
Now it’s all starting to make sense. Of course, the prosperity preachers from hell refuse to admit that Trump lost the election; Trump is the anointed one, so the prophecy says, he will be victimized by those nasty democrats and their Jezebel leader.
Of course, his father Fred, I mean god, will open heavens gate and then all will be well, and the anointed one will make America Great Again, sending us sinners, I mean socialist, commie losers for some much needed Christian conversion therapy.
By the way, this prophecy is located at your local community library in the fantasyland isle, next to the recently departed (removed) LGBTQ and sex educational sections!..:)
Actually, there's nothing wrong with Wallnau's visions that a large dose of Visine --taken orally, not dribbled into the eye-- wouldn't fix. Permanently.
Well, we could support Israel against Iran with troops and end up involved in the shooting part of WW3 (Which actually started with Russia’s invasion of Crimea under Obama’s watch).
Quick shout-back to Matthew Taylor's article in the September 26 Bulwark on how the evangelical movement, especially its view of the end times (and how that affects its politics), has changed.
I was a little surprised to read that article because I had been making the same points about the embrace of power for nearly a year. Smething is seriously amiss in the churches when people calling themselves Christians think they can use worldly power to usher in the Kingdom of God until you remember it is not the Kingdom of God they seek but worldly power itself.
Bill you did a great job convincing me that Vance is bad for the country but you didn’t actually address why this debate matters. I know, it’s an impossible task. If Trump setting himself on fire daily doesn’t move the polls then this debate surely won’t
Lance Wallnau's statement "Your greatest argument with death is an unfinished assignment” is one of the most ridiculous (and unChristian, right??) things I have ever heard. It infuriates me to think of the vulnerable people whose trust he and "faith leaders" like him abuse.
As an antidote, here are a few lines from Geoffrey Hill's "Funeral Music." Whether or not you agree with them (I'm agnostic on that), at least they're honest and intelligent.
I would hope that the moderators are more skillful about forming questions than the authors of the article, especially avoiding the embedding of questionable premises. or bad faith framing from the right. But I get that the authors were channeling the right in the formulation of the questions. I do not really expect the moderators to ask better questions.
1) There is nothing contradictory about opposing illegal immigration and allowing illegal immigrants to get driver's licenses. They are here working almost by definition and they will drive, licensed or not, because they have to go to work. It is much much preferred for the sake of public safety that everyone on the road pass both the written test and the driving test. This country is not really serious about ending illegal immigration. If we were, law enforcement would go after the criminal employers breaking the law by hiring them with just as much gusto, and the right would be far more critical of those employers than they are. The suggested answer is perfect.
2) The question is ostensibly about the cost of goods not decreasing at the same pace as the rate of inflation decreased.. In our capitalistic system, the government does not control prices. And when Harris talked about measures against price gouging on food (which Kroger admitted to doing), the same people complaining about the price of eggs took the other side, huffing about how dare she propose government price controls. Again ignoring the narrow bad faith and addressing the big picture improvements over the last three-four years as the suggested answer does is correct.
3) Pretty much the word "socialism" is a dead giveaway of bad faith. On a personal note, I have experienced the free school lunches provided to every student in a few other countries. They were way more nutritious than anything offered in American school cafeterias. I thin a better breakdown of the cost benefit analysis might be in order, but I also understand the people's eyes glaze over when you get into specific numbers. The narrative answer is fine.
4) Serving in a non-combat zone is not necessarily inconsistent with seeing combat. It is possible to carry a weapon of war in or near a war zone without ever being faced with the need to fire at someone. However it appears the Walz did indeed misspeak. The bad faith of the right nitpicking Walz while making egregious statements of their own is appalling and hypocritical. The suggested answer is excellent.
5) The NRA has forfeited their credibility and their rating is irrelevant. I remember when the NRA would have supported banning assault weapons, when their interest was in hunters and marksmanship competitions, NOT ensuring that America's mass shooters are the most well-armed in the world. If Walz is indeed asked these questions, the proposed answers are all great.
Hello everyone,
It’s important for Governor Walz to not overextend himself tonight. He should not attempt to respond to every smear or insult thrown his way by white nationalist creep Vance.
Instead, Governor Walz should pick his fights carefully, especially. The closing arguments for the Harris-Walz campaign and Governor Walz’s arguments tonight should be about freedom vs fascism, decency versus depravity, and competence vs chaos in America.
Vance has such a large political rap sheet and noxious personality that it is very tempting for anyone debating him to go at him with a sledgehammer. This would be a mistake, in my judgement, because it would completely take away from the positive vision and cheerful disposition of the Harris-Walz campaign. More later.
Sincerely,
David Hurwitz
Chicago, IL
It is as if Trump’s religious supporters think the “Supernatural” TV series was a documentary.
Finally, a near full-throated concern about what a Vance VP - or more specifically, a VANCE Presidency would mean:
"If you’re worried about the authoritarianism of a second Trump administration, you should be even more worried when you think about the more focused and far-reaching commitment to authoritarianism that Vance will bring to that administration."
I bring you a segment from last night's Rachael Maddow show that actually left her a bit speechless!
(It Left me wishing the West Wing was Real Life.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeVhHNSe9Ks
JD Vance is the tumor.
Oh, Dear God! I go to the bank, the store, buy groceries and come home after 2.5 hours. And the TV is blaring with some poor general trying to answer questions from a bunch of media types. Paraphrasing: "General Eisenhower, what will you do if the Germans defend Caen? General MacArthur, what will you do to get Manila out of Japanese hands? General Arnold, are you going to bomb the V-2 sites? General . . . " You get the idea. What the bloody hell is WRONG with those journalists????? And soon, we'll be getting crowing by the Orange Snake that none of this would have happened if HE was president!
To paraphrase another WW2 general, sometimes I think God is on the other side! I know I heard it, but I don't know who said it. Could have been a WW2 movie.
It was a German general on the WW 2 movie, “The Longest Day”.
Thanks! Knew I heard it recently. :-)
Ordinarily I would not pay any attention to a debate between VP candidates. First, no political so-called "debate" I've witnessed comes close to that of the Lincoln-Douglas debates of 1858* or of debates conducted whilst I was a member of Demosthenian Literary Society at UGa (1970-1972).
*I was not present for those debates. I have only read of them through various sources.
The problem with tonight's debate is J.D. Vance. In my view, not because of Vance's catty remarks or his popularity ranking in polling; not even because he is a sycophant of The False Prophet.
Vance's mentor, Peter Thiel, stated in 2009: "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible ... Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women—two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians—have rendered the notion of 'capitalist democracy' into an oxymoron."
If freedom and democracy are incompatible, what?
J.D. Vance stated in 2021 that the U.S. government should be "deleted", replaced by a CEO running a government formed like a joint stock corporation.
This is the point when Vance introduced the "great" (!) social philosopher, Curtis Yarvin. From what I've read, Yarvin's ideas regarding authoritarianism, which he supports, are also filled with dichotomies and contradictions regarding same-sex marriage, drug use, and anti-discrimination laws.
Basically, J.D. Vance is ineligible for elected office to a U.S. government position because, at his core, he wants to eliminate our government in favor of an autocratic CEO.
Kudos to Rachel Maddow: https://youtu.be/VeVhHNSe9Ks?si=IJjovyYMx4YleoiY
"J.D. Vance stated in 2021 that the U.S. government should be "deleted", replaced by a CEO running a government formed like a joint stock corporation." That kind of sounds like Huey Long's "My First Days in the White House." Here is a link to an online copy of it. I'm thinking of chapter 5.
https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015002673526?urlappend=%3Bseq=13%3Bownerid=13510798889839996-17
When questioned, Vance cited someone recommending that America become a dictatorship. THAT is the sort of person Vance is listening to these days.
Well, LCR, there's that.
I wrote earlier that I was becoming despondent about (gestures wildly) all this. Just stumbled over this not-at-all news related story and it was a very lovely respite, so thought I’d share with y’all. Cheers!
https://wapo.st/47MD7Ys
Re Andrew Egger: Well, yes—Trump as orange Jesus; the original also had non-white skin!
Having gone from "Trump's a Hitler", to "I love Trump", we really don't know what Vance believes in, not a clue beyond that he is an incredible opportunist with no shame whatsoever. Should he be elected, I have little doubt that our constitution will not survive it. I am reasonably assured that migrants seeking a better life won't be here and also that many legally resident people will be purged. I am reasonably assured that our system has really failed us overall and that if Harris does prevail, none of that failure can be made to go away. I do love her spirit but it feels like pushing back the tide.
Climate change will really be our ultimate test as millions head for temperate zones to simply survive. Not just here, but all of northern Europe will see a sea of humanity flood in seeking the promise on the statue of liberty that is promised in so many countries but will fail as millions are killed by the oncoming storm.
So, yeah, I'm despondent this morning. I indeed will watch the playoffs. It's my only solace at this point. I'm seeing friends, whose lives have been destroyed by such a storm in North Carolina and I can't even get in touch with any of them . I can't drive down there. Not a good day.
Chin up, Peter. This too shall pass. You are amongst friends here. Things will get better.
"And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be. And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."
-Max Ehrmann, "Desiderata"
Right now, I need God like a fish needs a bicycle. What I need are rational adults regardless of affiliation seeking common ground to move forward.
Well, that's what you had at the Bulwark before you even posted, and that's what you got more of in response, so maybe the "rational" thing to do would be to accept the "common ground" that exists and not expect it to coincide 100% with your preferred ground. You're not the first person to ever have been offered support that didn't come in exactly the form you wanted. And anyway that quote is about the most loose, tentative, flexible, nonreligious-friendly quote mentioning God that was ever written.
We're unlikely to "move forward" if we can't show a little tolerance for each others' POVs. Unless we're lucky, life is likely to provide more, not fewer, challenges in this regard in the future, so it'd be a good idea to choose your battles.
I'm sorry you're having a bad day. I wish good luck to your friends in NC.
Both Lance Wallnau and Mike Johnson have deep ties to the New Apostolic Reformation, a leading white Christian nationalist movement. The NAR is committed to establishing a white supremacist theocracy in the United States.
If trump is elected, adherents of far-right religious authoritarianism will stand second and third in line to the presidency.
I think someone needs to do a more thorough explanation of these various cults and sects. I don't know much about them, and would appreciate it. I do know that there have been some insurgent Roman Catholics for a few years, particularly in the US. However, I am old enough to remember the hatred leveled against RCs and I just do not see a coalition between this New Apostolic Reformation, which reportedly reviles the worship of Mary, and any Roman Catholic sect, period. You can't coalesce over abortion, or for control of the state, with those who will point the gun at you the moment they gain power -- at least not if you know what is good for you. According to news sources, Vance became a Roman Catholic within the past year (NYT 8.25.24).
I thought we Americans were against Theocracies? I thought we deplored the Taliban or ISIS or even the Mullahs and Ayatollah running the country like their own personal church. So here we have a part of our own country's political system advocating for what looks like to most as the same kind of thing! Replace the freedom of religion with a government that will use which one you pick as a purity test? And the adherents to the Constitution see nothing wrong with this? The people who support this are attracted to the Wallnaus with their batshit crazy rants? Buying into miracles that they hear about but have no personal knowledge of? Sending 'thoughts and prayers' instead of reality based help? We need to hit the reset button and Nov. 5 seems like a good time to do this. Vote Blue!
There are Trumpers who believe that America was a "Christian nation" before the Framers ruined it by importing "Enlightenment secularism."
Silly! OUR theocrats are not brown! They are white, just like Jesus was!
Now it’s all starting to make sense. Of course, the prosperity preachers from hell refuse to admit that Trump lost the election; Trump is the anointed one, so the prophecy says, he will be victimized by those nasty democrats and their Jezebel leader.
Of course, his father Fred, I mean god, will open heavens gate and then all will be well, and the anointed one will make America Great Again, sending us sinners, I mean socialist, commie losers for some much needed Christian conversion therapy.
By the way, this prophecy is located at your local community library in the fantasyland isle, next to the recently departed (removed) LGBTQ and sex educational sections!..:)
Actually, there's nothing wrong with Wallnau's visions that a large dose of Visine --taken orally, not dribbled into the eye-- wouldn't fix. Permanently.
Not a bad idea…:)
AMEN!! Bruthah! Preach it!😡
add to the worries I just read in the Times Iran could be hours away from attacking Israel!? What else can go haywire?!
Well, we could support Israel against Iran with troops and end up involved in the shooting part of WW3 (Which actually started with Russia’s invasion of Crimea under Obama’s watch).
Quick shout-back to Matthew Taylor's article in the September 26 Bulwark on how the evangelical movement, especially its view of the end times (and how that affects its politics), has changed.
https://www.thebulwark.com/p/how-left-behind-got-left-behind
Seems relevant here.
I was a little surprised to read that article because I had been making the same points about the embrace of power for nearly a year. Smething is seriously amiss in the churches when people calling themselves Christians think they can use worldly power to usher in the Kingdom of God until you remember it is not the Kingdom of God they seek but worldly power itself.
Bill you did a great job convincing me that Vance is bad for the country but you didn’t actually address why this debate matters. I know, it’s an impossible task. If Trump setting himself on fire daily doesn’t move the polls then this debate surely won’t
Lance Wallnau's statement "Your greatest argument with death is an unfinished assignment” is one of the most ridiculous (and unChristian, right??) things I have ever heard. It infuriates me to think of the vulnerable people whose trust he and "faith leaders" like him abuse.
As an antidote, here are a few lines from Geoffrey Hill's "Funeral Music." Whether or not you agree with them (I'm agnostic on that), at least they're honest and intelligent.
--------------
... If it is without
Consequence when we vaunt and suffer, or
If it is not, all echoes are the same
In such eternity. Then tell me, love,
How that should comfort us -- or anyone
Dragged half-unnerved out of this worldly place,
Crying to the end ‘I have not finished’.
--------------
Full poem cycle here: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/48460/funeral-music