A tough day in Wilmington as Pelosi says the age questions are fair game and the first House Dem has now called for the president to withdraw from the race.
I think Speaker Johnson needs a refresher course in Civics 101. The president and vice president are the only two offices in our constitutional system that are NOT elected by all the people. If they were, Hillary Clinton would have been elected President in 2016. And he says "No one who is elected to that office is going to be prone to this kind of crazy criminal activity". I guess he was asleep during President Felon's term.
His high school didn't offer Civics 101. They were too busy teaching the 10 Commandments and giving hints at how best to break them while acting as if you were Christian.
And instead of teaching evolutionary biology they were probably teaching irrational denial of it, and/or how to lie about it. If it was one of the more extreme schools, he was probably also taught one the the mutually-contradictory literal interpretations of Genesis as fact, even though most major religions no longer take it literally, and accept mainstream science's conclusions of biology and natural history.
Sorry, Bill, but he would have had to have had a course in Civics 101 to have a refresher course, and I have grave doubts that anyone can find any record such an educational undertaking for Meek Mike.
It is absolutely amazing to watch Pelosi, who herself railed against notions that she was too old for her job, now pivot to shank one of her biggest defenders.
Nevermind that even if the Dam breaks, there is no one who could replace Biden. Regardless of whether we believe he's actually fit or not, he won every primary. Millions of people cast votes for him. Furthermore, unless the plan is to nominate Harris, who has no constituency, all of the money and organization so far will have been wasted.
Beyond that, we do have polls for other fantasy candidates, and all of them are losing to Trump. So the question is, do you pick one of the ones who polls say does worse than Biden or do you stick with a guy who has managed for four years and has roughly a 50/50 shot of winning?
Baffling to me that Democrats are so bad at politics they'd rather toss the election to candidates doing worse in polls than Biden.
Your crystal ball is just as cloudy as anyone else's, Mr. Symposium, so your prediction that "no one could replace Biden" has a 50/50 shot of accuracy. Sure, there was a democratic 2024 primary of sorts but it was mostly a coronation, kind of like the Hillary coronation of 2016. How did that work out?
Fantasy polls are even less helpful than actual polls. They match up "low name recognition" candidates with DJT. Useless. Had Biden done the patriotic thing in 2023 and announced he would not run in this election, there was plenty of time to hold a robust democratic primary which would have exposed the democrat's deep bench (or so they claim) and created name recognition for the eventual winner. Polling that person against Trump would have had some meaning.
In the meantime, we're watching the republic fade to black in the very manner that Lincoln predicted, rotting from the inside.
If progressives had done the "patriotic" thing in 2016 - we would never have been stuck with Trump.
If Republicans had done the "patriotic" thing anytime over the last eight years, we wouldn't have been stuck with Trump.
So blaming Joe Biden for recognizing that a. way too many voters will only vote for a white man and b. he's the only competent candidate in the fucking race is just ridiculous.
Nancy Pelosi plays chess eight moves ahead. I'm curious how this ends up but my bet is Biden wins in November.
Ms. Collins, I try very earnestly not to be "ridiculous". If you are interested, you can read a post I wrote in February 2023. It predicted that there was going to be an age problem for Biden if he ran again in 2024. Ergo, I am not new to this point of view, bad debate performance or not.
So yes, you thought Joe Biden was too old last year.
Hooray for you.
Who exactly did you expect to replace him? Where was the move to draft that person in the last 18 months?
Did you call for Obama to drop out when he had a bad debate?
Is it really really more important for you (and Bill Kristol I might add) to be "right" than to actually admit to reality?
Normally, the person to replace him would be his VP but you know and I know, the reason most of you are getting hysterical is because his VP is a black woman.
So feel free to continue moaning and wailing while the rest of us work to get Joe Biden re-elected.
Your replies are full of anger and insults. I find them off-putting and disappointing. Clearly you haven't read my other comment today wherein I address the misogynistic and racist issues for some voters as regards Kamala Harris. In spite of what you believe about me as being either or both, I am personally offended. One supposes, Ms. Collins, that whoever the democratic candidate is in November, that you will vote for them and not vote for DJT out of spite for even the legitimate discussion of whether Joe should be the candidate at this point in time. We're on the same team. We just disagree on the best strategy for beating DJT. I make my points without resorting to insults and thinly veiled sarcasm. "Hooray for me."
Oh, Mr. Brittain, if you think that was sarcastic, you really have no clue.
I will be voting for Joe Biden for the same reason I just sent more money to Joe Biden - because he's an excellent president and I want four more years.
You on the other hand are living a fantasy where in the next four months, we find some extra-special Democrat to replace him, re-run the primaries and pretty much waste everyone else's time whining that Biden is old before settling down to the fact that one bad debate is not the whole game.
You're also ignoring the fact that this moaning and groaning is exactly what most people despise about this party and certainly will not convince a lot of them to get out and vote for Biden.
So until you convince me that you have A GD CLUE about how the US runs national elections, I will continue to be sarcastic.
The best of pundents are no better at predicting than the rest of us at the moment. The age issue was always trouble for Biden. And now it is probably a game changer (since the debate)
Dean Philips was the only one with the stones to do the right and necessary thing, and he got ridiculed and denounced. I wasn't opposed to what he was doing, but I wasn't a defender of his, either. No matter what, Phillips was not the guy to do it, he was just the only one willing to do it. Phillips was right, and everyone who said otherwise was wrong.
I don’t know what the answer is but believing that these candidates who have (1) no money, (2) no national brand, (3) no campaign team, and (4) have never run nationally.
Trump has murdered like 30 “great” politicians. The chances we can pick the right one and they can make the case against a generational politician in 2 months is super steep. Waving that off seems profoundly risky
"we do have polls for other fantasy candidates, and all of them are losing to Trump"
CNN is out with a poll today showing EVERY other mentioned candidate outperforming Biden. A full 75% want a different candidate. (56% of self identified Dems want someone else)
This is a real issue. Burying your head in the sand and pretending it isn't is the way Trump gets elected.
Personally, I think they've always been like this. In 2020, it caused Bloomberg to enter the race, because the party was so baffled and terrified that all of it's women and minority candidates failed, and the only one with any chance to win was Joe Biden.
Biden of course, crushed Bloomberg like a paper cup with the backing of southern black voters, because as it turned out, Biden had a really strong constituency with actual voters, not the ones the focus groups said existed.
This seems to be a theme with Democrats; they talk a lot about voters that don't exist. We've had primaries, and not only was no one willing to get into the race, the ones who did lost by huge margins. In one case, when Biden wasn't even on the ballot!
So apparently, their message was 'the people have spoken unless we dislike what the people have chosen so we'll decide on our own who the candidate should be!' Which has never gone well for any party in American history.
I don't think they want trump to win. I think they cannot imagine themselves winning, because they're so convinced that they can only lose no matter what hand they play.
I would be in favor of replacing Biden if there was some other candidate that was A. winning primaries and B. polling better than him. Neither is true. Biden won every primary by a huge margin. Every supposedly better candidate is polling worse than Biden is against Trump.
So unless a unicorn springs up from the ground, the best chance is still Biden.
MAGA wants Trump. The GOP got on board because everyone who went against him lost. The majority of us want Biden but Dems as a whole have no steel in their spine. Biden's gotten more support from Adam Kinzinger than Nancy Pelosi! The hysteria over a bad debate performance is ridiculous. Thank you for what you said.
Elizabeth Warren crushed Bloomberg in one debate and he wasn't the same after that. If she had only taken on Bernie the same way she might have had a better showing.
Biden had nothing to do with Bloomberg's failure.
An incumbent hasn't been primaries since 1980; to expect that to change in 2024 is silly thinking.
First of all it is up to Biden whether he stays or drops out. Secondly, if it wasn't for Clyburn's endorsement before the South Carolina primary, Sanders would have been the Dem. nominee.Then Trump would have won. I wonder if Clyburn has Biden's ear as to influence what Biden does?
Regardless of whether we believe he's fit or not? I have no interest in running a candidate potntially unfit for office in an election we must win. When the facts change, it's time to reevaluate your course of action. The facts have changed, and it's unfortunate that they changed after votes were cast in uncontested primaries, but incredibly fortunate they changed while there is still time to do something about it. There is something seriously wrong with the president, and it's not going to get any better.
I don't believe he's unfit, and I don't believe that there is anything seriously wrong with him. I also don't think you can evaluate that in a single 90 minute period.
More importantly, we already have a mechanism for dealing with that, so if he's actually unfit, then his cabinet can remove him. Unless they do that, the proper thing to do is to vote for Biden.
With all due respect, the problem isn't what any of us would do. I think it's fair to say, if you're here at The Bulwark, then you're voting for the Not-Trump candidate. It's all of those people that aren't here; those that aren't Democrats; those that, much to our dismay, may be willing to elect a King Trump (given the recent SCOTUS ruling) because Biden seems too old and my eggs are too expensive. Those are the people I fear most; the ignorant with a chip on their shoulder.
I'm voting for him. I don't think he is electable now. I thought he had a decent chance(50 %) until the debate.The age and acuity issue will get worse now.
Welcome to politics! No one knows if a candidate is electable until the votes happen.
But right now, he's the most electable using all the available data we have, and we already went through 'is he electable' in 2020 with him.
The other thing is all 'electable' means is 'will people vote for him.' The GOP understands that anyone is electable if the they put an R next to their name to their voters. If Democrats understood this, then we would not be having a problem. Instead, they kneecap themselves at every opportunity.
Have you been watching him for the last year or so? Do you care about the next 4 years if he wins? I will vote for him too, but only because of his opponent.
The reality is that the future is the future, and the present is the present. Our current situation is not our future situation. Our present requires defeating Trump; if we need to replace Biden after that point that's a different conversation, and one we've had before as a nation.
But if the worry is 'can Harris be president' then perhaps the question is not about replacing Biden but about replacing Harris.
If the only goal is hoping we beat DT, then I agree Biden’s chances are better with KH on the sidelines. I’d like to see Wes Moore considered.
But if we care about governing over the next 4 years, then a change in the top makes sense to me. A governor from a purple state (Michigan?) with Moore as VP would be my choice.
Yes, I have been watching him, with great appreciation. He's older; doesn't move like he used to; still has his stammer; and he did have a miserable non-debate experience about which I'm still unsure we have even part of the story. But importantly, *debate is not what a president does 99.999% of the time*. They govern. He's got a surpassingly positive record that would have been even greater had the Rs not opposed every step. Even without Darth Vader, I'd be for him.
It didn't, because no one wanted to do it. It also didn't work under Reagan. And it wouldn't have worked under Nixon. But it exists, if they believe that's the best option. My point is, removing a president isn't like removing a prime minister in Britain; you're stuck with them for four years. That's how it is. That's how it's always been, and likely always will be.
I have to assume Pelosi was not speaking off the cuff here, and she thinks it's useful to not shut down this discussion, probably based on non-public discussions or data. I'm 100% certain she wants Trump to lose whichever way that's possible.
It's true that Fetterman won his senate race even after a stroke, and most of us will 100% vote for Biden if he's the candidate anyway. But the Trump campaign is guaranteed to show adverts with clips of Biden's muddles talk from the debate and "Is this person fit to be President?", so Biden will now need to be a few percent ahead to counter this handicap.
I really don't think the money is insurmountable, and Biden could offer to make his campaign available to a replacement candidate. It's true there is a risk a new candidate could tank, but the initial poll from Biden's team shows them at the same level as Biden (before any post-debate drop) without any campaign to build name recognition that might boost them as a non-elderly non-Trump human being who can more clearly articulate policies. So it's not clear if changing would be good or bad.
All I am asking for this July 4 is for people with actual influence within the Democratic Party to look at all facts and make an informed decision. Pelosi’s statement is giving me some hope that she is not going into the next four months flying blind. Although she is no longer the minority leader, but think she still has infuence.
why aren't the Dems running nonstop ads showing trump's muddled talking in his speeches? The Hannibal Lecter speech at Cape May, all his lies in the debate, windmills killing birds and causing cancer, the sharks and the electric batteries, etc..and how Climate Change doesn't exist and how he'll do away with climate change regulations if big business contributes a billion $ to his campaign.
They're already running an ad about what Democrats were saying about Biden's age and fitness followed by some of his most egregious stumbles from the debate.
Most of the public is not truly familiar with Whitmer, Newsom, etc. Put somebody likeable and sane on TV for 4 months and they might win through sheer Trump exhaustion.
Biden does not have a 50/50 shot at winning - that’s the point of the current exercise. If the game was still at the point it was last wed then there would be none of this. Biden and his team did this - not anyone else. Show me a campaign blitz strategy that bangs the drum loudly and consistently for the next 4 months with Biden and Harris leading the daily charge and I’ll stay put - otherwise this is political malpractice of the highest order
I doubt those millions of primary voters would cast votes for Biden today. You call Dems bad at politics. I guess you think the Republicans who run a vile reptile three races in a row as being much better at politics. Dems will rally around a new candidate. A female would be great to point out the abortion travesty. A Black person would be great to keep the minority vote. Oh, I think I just described Kamala Harris! Can't wait to see the Trump Harris debate.
Good for Nancy Pelosi. This means we have an opportunity of switching to a candidate that has a greater than 0% chance of defeating Trump. Joe Biden on debate night resembled King Theoden before being exorcised by Gandalf in The Two Towers.
The comments I've been reading about this, whether pro-Joe or not, are very troubling. There are too many recriminations back and forth. No matter who heads the ticket in November, fighting with each other will doom us. We have to unite. No Democrat can win an election when Democrats are at war with themselves.
The Biden situation will resolve one way or another. I won't have hard feelings either way, not because I don't have an opinion on whether Joe should stay or go, but because we can't afford hard feelings.
I get and respect this sentiment, but I think it's wishful thinking at this point. Much like Biden IS the nominee, we ARE having this conversation, right now. The best hope is to unify after the convention, because it sure seems like this will be the conversation up until that point unless the Biden campaign finds a real way to change it.
Yesterday's ruling was another good issue given to Biden to run. But then came last week's debate. Trump has been luckier than the cat with nine lives.
House Speaker Mike Johnson: "No one who is elected to that office is going to be prone to this kind of crazy criminal activity." He has drunk deeply from the cup of delusion.
Sen. Lindsey Graham: "The liberal members of the Court and the Left have lost their minds when it comes to President Trump." Graham misspelled "liberal". It should have spelled as "the GOP and the right-wing".
I saw where Trump said he wants to go after McConnell for retribution. I wonder what Mitch thinks of that? I would like to see someone ask Trump if Kelly, Maddis and MacMaster are on his retribution list also. Would that be something to spur them on to get off their high horse to speak out?
Kelly's already spoken out. And of course, they're on the list. So, according to a headline I saw, is Rupert Murdoch, age 93. If he had any sense, he'd turn his empire against the Snake who would do what he could to hurt him. And dump every pro-Snake on the network.
As Sarah has often said, he has to do it more than once and more vociferously. Same goes for Maddis and MacMaster and Trumpster's first Sec of State.(I forget his name who was once the president of Standard oil) As far as Rupert is concerned,he is ancient history. As Rhett Butler once said;"Frankley, I don't give a damn" .
Tillerson. The ones who weren't crooks or left because of scandal need to open their mouths. Rupert is ancient, but Fox is still his. If he told Hannity, etc. to stuff it, they'll listen. They should remember what happened to Reilly and Tucker.
I do wonder which of his supporters Trump would go after, if any? Graham may need to grovel harder than he ever has, once Trump is free to act on whatever whim he will have.
A few years ago Steve Schmidt (who worked for John McCain) described Graham as one of those small fishes that live constantly by sharks for protection. Lindsey loves being near the power and will do anything for it. And it shows!
Maybe she now realizes her mistake backing Feinstein and doesn’t want to make the same mistake again. That’s not hypocrisy, that’s changing your course when presented with new information. Like the aftermath with Feinstein. Just a thought.
Underestimate Nancy Pelosi at your peril. Political genius, who appears to be staying not to defy age, but I suspect a desire to help bring forward the younger folks. To carry on the work. If so, good on her. But while this discussion continues, maybe check out what David Frum and Stuart Stevens have to say today at Chez Atlantic. Very thoughtful ideas on the Devil you know vs the one you do not.
I'm a bit taken back from the comments that it's Biden or no one, that only HE ALONE CAN WIN. That smacks of a certain wannabe authoritarian who's pitch was " I alone can fix it".. if this is in fact the case our future is dim.
As far as the " ageism" and pelosi being a hypocrite, well there was never a question on her abilities in relation to her age. This President has been under this cloud for several years and there's a major difference between the President and even the Speaker of the House regardless of it's position in succession. Biden needs to get out there immediately and do unscripted interviews and town halls and no teleprompter to include rallies. Only this will disapprove of the age questions and erase a " bad " night if he doesn't then we know it wasn't a bad night and he's essentially unqualified.
They did try to pin age on Pelosi, but they couldn't make it stick because she would disprove it again and again. Biden is not doing that. He needs to.
At this point I'm resigned to letting Biden and the Dems figure this out. No matter what happens, more likely than not we are completely forked as JVL would say. Either way I'm voting for the D candidate in November.
You have to give people room to maneuver, and Pelosi understands that better than anyone. Even if they could make everyone stop talking about Biden's age or the debate, all it would do is build resentment and force things underground. That'll just lead to more anonymous quotes and infighting.
Hope Pelosi, who had a remarkable ability to hold House Democrats together in all the essentials, will have the same success in unifying the entire party behind Biden's replacement.
"Remember this, the president and vice president are the only two offices in our constitutional system that are elected by all the people. No one who is elected to that office is going to be prone to this kind of crazy criminal activity. What the court is saying here follows common sense and, of course, our Constitution as well."
Johnson is lying. The people don't elect the president and VP, the electoral college elects them. We the people have no right to elect the president, or even the electoral college delegates, this is a privilege granted to us by the states themselves. His suggestion that this ruling follows the constitution would be laughable if it weren't so sad.
Plus, what about Nixon? It's just entirely inaccurate to say no one elected to the Presidency would engage in criminal activity. Yes, they do, and we have an actual situation to prove that.
Why is nobody asking Biden to have a work up by a geriatric neurologist? If this is just a “bad night” he should want to have a cognitive workup to clear the air and reassure the voters. The fact that NOBODY has asked this question tells me there is a real issue with Biden’s cognition and those who know it are asking him to step aside and those who don’t or are in denial are doubling down. That tells me all I need to know.
He should be doing interviews. He's doing nothing to reassure anyone that this was just a bad night. I cannot understand people on these message boards who watched that debate and aren't freaking the hell out that he's our candidate right now. They have shielded Biden for months and months. He didn't do the Super Bowl interview during an election year. Who passes up an opportunity like that? They're hiding the Hur interview tapes. You think he'd come off well if those things were released to the public? And all this time, they've called anyone concerned about the president's capabillities Chicken Littles.
The Hur interview transcripts are available. Honestly I wish people would talk more about the psychosis of the country when comes to the standard for a democratic candidate and a republican candidate. The Bulwark would do us a great service to motivate us to action against the republicans and trump if they did that. Biden is the new Al Franken. Al was a decent senator who ought to at least have had a hearing. Now it’s time to beat up the likely nominee. Let the Dems and Biden figure out what will happen. Instead everyone has pitchforks and the mob is gathering to get Biden. Does he get any time to process anything? How many crisises has he handled in the past three and a half years? Does he have the right to have a bad debate, something he was never particularly strong in? Did his team mess this up? Likely. Is he old? Yes. Does he need more time to think things through? Likely. He’s done a great job running the country and all I hear now is that he’s not capable. How about let’s focus on the issue of even if the Dems win, the republicans will say they stole the election? How about what can be done about that? What measures are in place to protect the tatters of this not very representative democracy? We don’t talk about those things because they require some thought and action. Pundits here would do us a real service if they changed the conversation for five minutes.
We have a more immediate emergency before we can get to any of that other stuff. I know the transcripts are available, but we need the audio. I'm all out of benefits of the doubt to give right now. The debate was a cataclysm and exposed a pattern of lies, obfuscation, and cover up by people in my party who are in the president's orbit. And I don't think we can keep lying and lie ourselves out of this.
We don't need the transcripts and the Republicans should not have them, ever. Biden sits down for an interview on Friday with George Stephanopoulos , so we might get a better idea of how he does without a teleprompter. If Biden decides not to run, then I hope there isn't a fist fight about who will be the candidate. The Democratic party has been divided and a mess, and whoever is on the ticket must be supported by ALL of us. No hissy fits about "well I didn't get my way about..... so I am not going to vote." Everyone has got to understand what is at stake here. We will all need to work hard.
How can we know whether someone has or has not asked for a geriatric neurologist evaluation on the president? Because it isn't plastered over print and tv media? We don't know what we don't know.
I think we're going to have a new nominee. I know there are people who are disappointed about this and worried how things will turn out. But Biden should not have run again, and he is not capable of running again, and we need to beat Trump. I know there are people sad to see Biden cast aside, but it's not personal (although I'm still hot at how much we've been lied to about his current state). But the man who was on the right side of ours screens for 90 minutes is in no condition to run a presidential campaign and serve for four years, and voters are going to sniff it out, and Trump is going to get elected unless we change course. His debate performance was equal parts abysmal and shocking, and is clear evidence of something serious going on that people are not being honest about still.
People in high places are going to start being increasingly honest, I think, and we're going to have an energized and revitalized party excited with a new candidate and a sense of purpose, and something to offer a public that overwhelmingly dislikes both of the current candidates.
It is all up to Joe Biden. I hope he and his team really ask the tough questions for himself and themselves, then weigh the pros and cons in the next two weeks. If he stays, he must be up for the challenge as a candidate, not just being a decent president. Replacing him is unprecedented, but so it actively working towards authoritarianism by one of the two parties.
I don't think it's quite sunk in yet with the Biden camp just how much of a pariah he and his family will be with a huge swath of the population if he runs and loses. He'll be a pariah with the very people who have supported him up until now. We all know - or have a very good idea - what Trump will do with his second term in terms of damage to the nation and damage to democratic norms. Trump is gonna Trump and we all know that, but lots of us, myself included, will look to Biden as the man who handed the keys back to Trump, and that will forever taint his legacy.
And when the Snake beats the pants of every other candidate named by wishful people, who will they blame? Sorry, but it's clear that the MAGAs are thrilled at the doom-and-gloom of the Ds.
I think Speaker Johnson needs a refresher course in Civics 101. The president and vice president are the only two offices in our constitutional system that are NOT elected by all the people. If they were, Hillary Clinton would have been elected President in 2016. And he says "No one who is elected to that office is going to be prone to this kind of crazy criminal activity". I guess he was asleep during President Felon's term.
His high school didn't offer Civics 101. They were too busy teaching the 10 Commandments and giving hints at how best to break them while acting as if you were Christian.
And instead of teaching evolutionary biology they were probably teaching irrational denial of it, and/or how to lie about it. If it was one of the more extreme schools, he was probably also taught one the the mutually-contradictory literal interpretations of Genesis as fact, even though most major religions no longer take it literally, and accept mainstream science's conclusions of biology and natural history.
Sorry, Bill, but he would have had to have had a course in Civics 101 to have a refresher course, and I have grave doubts that anyone can find any record such an educational undertaking for Meek Mike.
He's right, they are elected by all the people. It's just not a straightforward count where all votes are equal.
It is absolutely amazing to watch Pelosi, who herself railed against notions that she was too old for her job, now pivot to shank one of her biggest defenders.
Nevermind that even if the Dam breaks, there is no one who could replace Biden. Regardless of whether we believe he's actually fit or not, he won every primary. Millions of people cast votes for him. Furthermore, unless the plan is to nominate Harris, who has no constituency, all of the money and organization so far will have been wasted.
Beyond that, we do have polls for other fantasy candidates, and all of them are losing to Trump. So the question is, do you pick one of the ones who polls say does worse than Biden or do you stick with a guy who has managed for four years and has roughly a 50/50 shot of winning?
Baffling to me that Democrats are so bad at politics they'd rather toss the election to candidates doing worse in polls than Biden.
Your crystal ball is just as cloudy as anyone else's, Mr. Symposium, so your prediction that "no one could replace Biden" has a 50/50 shot of accuracy. Sure, there was a democratic 2024 primary of sorts but it was mostly a coronation, kind of like the Hillary coronation of 2016. How did that work out?
Fantasy polls are even less helpful than actual polls. They match up "low name recognition" candidates with DJT. Useless. Had Biden done the patriotic thing in 2023 and announced he would not run in this election, there was plenty of time to hold a robust democratic primary which would have exposed the democrat's deep bench (or so they claim) and created name recognition for the eventual winner. Polling that person against Trump would have had some meaning.
In the meantime, we're watching the republic fade to black in the very manner that Lincoln predicted, rotting from the inside.
If progressives had done the "patriotic" thing in 2016 - we would never have been stuck with Trump.
If Republicans had done the "patriotic" thing anytime over the last eight years, we wouldn't have been stuck with Trump.
So blaming Joe Biden for recognizing that a. way too many voters will only vote for a white man and b. he's the only competent candidate in the fucking race is just ridiculous.
Nancy Pelosi plays chess eight moves ahead. I'm curious how this ends up but my bet is Biden wins in November.
Ms. Collins, I try very earnestly not to be "ridiculous". If you are interested, you can read a post I wrote in February 2023. It predicted that there was going to be an age problem for Biden if he ran again in 2024. Ergo, I am not new to this point of view, bad debate performance or not.
"Dear Joe". https://13thclown.com/?p=2954
So yes, you thought Joe Biden was too old last year.
Hooray for you.
Who exactly did you expect to replace him? Where was the move to draft that person in the last 18 months?
Did you call for Obama to drop out when he had a bad debate?
Is it really really more important for you (and Bill Kristol I might add) to be "right" than to actually admit to reality?
Normally, the person to replace him would be his VP but you know and I know, the reason most of you are getting hysterical is because his VP is a black woman.
So feel free to continue moaning and wailing while the rest of us work to get Joe Biden re-elected.
Somehow we'll survive without you.
Ms. Collins--
Your replies are full of anger and insults. I find them off-putting and disappointing. Clearly you haven't read my other comment today wherein I address the misogynistic and racist issues for some voters as regards Kamala Harris. In spite of what you believe about me as being either or both, I am personally offended. One supposes, Ms. Collins, that whoever the democratic candidate is in November, that you will vote for them and not vote for DJT out of spite for even the legitimate discussion of whether Joe should be the candidate at this point in time. We're on the same team. We just disagree on the best strategy for beating DJT. I make my points without resorting to insults and thinly veiled sarcasm. "Hooray for me."
Oh, Mr. Brittain, if you think that was sarcastic, you really have no clue.
I will be voting for Joe Biden for the same reason I just sent more money to Joe Biden - because he's an excellent president and I want four more years.
You on the other hand are living a fantasy where in the next four months, we find some extra-special Democrat to replace him, re-run the primaries and pretty much waste everyone else's time whining that Biden is old before settling down to the fact that one bad debate is not the whole game.
You're also ignoring the fact that this moaning and groaning is exactly what most people despise about this party and certainly will not convince a lot of them to get out and vote for Biden.
So until you convince me that you have A GD CLUE about how the US runs national elections, I will continue to be sarcastic.
You remember how well Dean Philips and RFK Jr. did against Biden, right?
The best of pundents are no better at predicting than the rest of us at the moment. The age issue was always trouble for Biden. And now it is probably a game changer (since the debate)
Virtually no one knows Dean Philips and RFK, Jr. is a whacko. So, your point would be?
My point is incumbents rarely have challengers, and those who do lose.
People ran against Biden.
Those people lost. And by the way, they lost by bigger margins than Haley lost to Trump.
Quick, Ms. Collins (and no Googling), name those "people".
Already named, above.
Dean Phillips
Marianne Williamson (who did better than Dean Phillips btw)
Uncommitted (who also did better than Dean Phillips.)
Would you like me to go back to 2020?
Or do you not remember the weeping and wailing about Biden's age in 2020?
Dean Philips was the only one with the stones to do the right and necessary thing, and he got ridiculed and denounced. I wasn't opposed to what he was doing, but I wasn't a defender of his, either. No matter what, Phillips was not the guy to do it, he was just the only one willing to do it. Phillips was right, and everyone who said otherwise was wrong.
Dean Phillips has no real experience except that he ran the family business.
Didn't we learn our lesson in 2016?
You say stones -- I say delusions of grandeur.
I said he wasn't the guy to do it. But he was the only one who did. And he was right. We needed someone other than Biden as the nominee.
Remind how good of a president the following are:
Scott walker
Jeb bush
Ron desantis
Nikki Hailey
Marco Rubio
Tim Scott
Hillary Clinton
Bernie
I don’t know what the answer is but believing that these candidates who have (1) no money, (2) no national brand, (3) no campaign team, and (4) have never run nationally.
Trump has murdered like 30 “great” politicians. The chances we can pick the right one and they can make the case against a generational politician in 2 months is super steep. Waving that off seems profoundly risky
"we do have polls for other fantasy candidates, and all of them are losing to Trump"
CNN is out with a poll today showing EVERY other mentioned candidate outperforming Biden. A full 75% want a different candidate. (56% of self identified Dems want someone else)
This is a real issue. Burying your head in the sand and pretending it isn't is the way Trump gets elected.
The polls I'm using are here: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/
Which as far as I know, are the most up to date polls. Biden wins about half of them, Harris, Newsom, Whitmer, and Buttigieg all lose.
I'm not burying my head in the sand, I'm looking at the data as we have it.
The rubber will meet the road once we get all the post debate polls out.
Why?
When in the last two years have polls been accurate?
None of these people are currently campaigning except Biden.
Right now the election is a referendum on Biden. His only hope is if he can turn it into a referendum on Trump.
Yeah they have the same chance of going up as they do down. I don’t understand how people do t realize this.
Agreed.
Hell, they apparently want Trump to win. Pathetic.
Personally, I think they've always been like this. In 2020, it caused Bloomberg to enter the race, because the party was so baffled and terrified that all of it's women and minority candidates failed, and the only one with any chance to win was Joe Biden.
Biden of course, crushed Bloomberg like a paper cup with the backing of southern black voters, because as it turned out, Biden had a really strong constituency with actual voters, not the ones the focus groups said existed.
This seems to be a theme with Democrats; they talk a lot about voters that don't exist. We've had primaries, and not only was no one willing to get into the race, the ones who did lost by huge margins. In one case, when Biden wasn't even on the ballot!
So apparently, their message was 'the people have spoken unless we dislike what the people have chosen so we'll decide on our own who the candidate should be!' Which has never gone well for any party in American history.
I don't think they want trump to win. I think they cannot imagine themselves winning, because they're so convinced that they can only lose no matter what hand they play.
Thank you for saying what I've been trying to say.
I would be in favor of replacing Biden if there was some other candidate that was A. winning primaries and B. polling better than him. Neither is true. Biden won every primary by a huge margin. Every supposedly better candidate is polling worse than Biden is against Trump.
So unless a unicorn springs up from the ground, the best chance is still Biden.
MAGA wants Trump. The GOP got on board because everyone who went against him lost. The majority of us want Biden but Dems as a whole have no steel in their spine. Biden's gotten more support from Adam Kinzinger than Nancy Pelosi! The hysteria over a bad debate performance is ridiculous. Thank you for what you said.
CNN has brand new polling out regarding all Dem Candidates against Trump.
And it shows Harris the closest to beating Trump, and that includes Biden. Caveat that it's only one poll.
Yup!
Elizabeth Warren crushed Bloomberg in one debate and he wasn't the same after that. If she had only taken on Bernie the same way she might have had a better showing.
Biden had nothing to do with Bloomberg's failure.
An incumbent hasn't been primaries since 1980; to expect that to change in 2024 is silly thinking.
First of all it is up to Biden whether he stays or drops out. Secondly, if it wasn't for Clyburn's endorsement before the South Carolina primary, Sanders would have been the Dem. nominee.Then Trump would have won. I wonder if Clyburn has Biden's ear as to influence what Biden does?
Regardless of whether we believe he's fit or not? I have no interest in running a candidate potntially unfit for office in an election we must win. When the facts change, it's time to reevaluate your course of action. The facts have changed, and it's unfortunate that they changed after votes were cast in uncontested primaries, but incredibly fortunate they changed while there is still time to do something about it. There is something seriously wrong with the president, and it's not going to get any better.
I don't believe he's unfit, and I don't believe that there is anything seriously wrong with him. I also don't think you can evaluate that in a single 90 minute period.
More importantly, we already have a mechanism for dealing with that, so if he's actually unfit, then his cabinet can remove him. Unless they do that, the proper thing to do is to vote for Biden.
With all due respect, the problem isn't what any of us would do. I think it's fair to say, if you're here at The Bulwark, then you're voting for the Not-Trump candidate. It's all of those people that aren't here; those that aren't Democrats; those that, much to our dismay, may be willing to elect a King Trump (given the recent SCOTUS ruling) because Biden seems too old and my eggs are too expensive. Those are the people I fear most; the ignorant with a chip on their shoulder.
I'm going to vote for him. I'm just not sure he's electable.
I'm voting for him. I don't think he is electable now. I thought he had a decent chance(50 %) until the debate.The age and acuity issue will get worse now.
Welcome to politics! No one knows if a candidate is electable until the votes happen.
But right now, he's the most electable using all the available data we have, and we already went through 'is he electable' in 2020 with him.
The other thing is all 'electable' means is 'will people vote for him.' The GOP understands that anyone is electable if the they put an R next to their name to their voters. If Democrats understood this, then we would not be having a problem. Instead, they kneecap themselves at every opportunity.
Have you been watching him for the last year or so? Do you care about the next 4 years if he wins? I will vote for him too, but only because of his opponent.
The reality is that the future is the future, and the present is the present. Our current situation is not our future situation. Our present requires defeating Trump; if we need to replace Biden after that point that's a different conversation, and one we've had before as a nation.
But if the worry is 'can Harris be president' then perhaps the question is not about replacing Biden but about replacing Harris.
If the only goal is hoping we beat DT, then I agree Biden’s chances are better with KH on the sidelines. I’d like to see Wes Moore considered.
But if we care about governing over the next 4 years, then a change in the top makes sense to me. A governor from a purple state (Michigan?) with Moore as VP would be my choice.
Yes, I have been watching him, with great appreciation. He's older; doesn't move like he used to; still has his stammer; and he did have a miserable non-debate experience about which I'm still unsure we have even part of the story. But importantly, *debate is not what a president does 99.999% of the time*. They govern. He's got a surpassingly positive record that would have been even greater had the Rs not opposed every step. Even without Darth Vader, I'd be for him.
It might not be a great comparison but Cabinet removal didn't work under Trump.
It didn't, because no one wanted to do it. It also didn't work under Reagan. And it wouldn't have worked under Nixon. But it exists, if they believe that's the best option. My point is, removing a president isn't like removing a prime minister in Britain; you're stuck with them for four years. That's how it is. That's how it's always been, and likely always will be.
Removal by cabinet is dead and so is impeachments.Dead and buried by recent histiory.
And those facts changed after last Thursday.
I have to assume Pelosi was not speaking off the cuff here, and she thinks it's useful to not shut down this discussion, probably based on non-public discussions or data. I'm 100% certain she wants Trump to lose whichever way that's possible.
It's true that Fetterman won his senate race even after a stroke, and most of us will 100% vote for Biden if he's the candidate anyway. But the Trump campaign is guaranteed to show adverts with clips of Biden's muddles talk from the debate and "Is this person fit to be President?", so Biden will now need to be a few percent ahead to counter this handicap.
I really don't think the money is insurmountable, and Biden could offer to make his campaign available to a replacement candidate. It's true there is a risk a new candidate could tank, but the initial poll from Biden's team shows them at the same level as Biden (before any post-debate drop) without any campaign to build name recognition that might boost them as a non-elderly non-Trump human being who can more clearly articulate policies. So it's not clear if changing would be good or bad.
All I am asking for this July 4 is for people with actual influence within the Democratic Party to look at all facts and make an informed decision. Pelosi’s statement is giving me some hope that she is not going into the next four months flying blind. Although she is no longer the minority leader, but think she still has infuence.
I think it is more than most of us who will vote for Biden against Trump. Trump and MAGA no longer need AI in campaigning against Biden.
why aren't the Dems running nonstop ads showing trump's muddled talking in his speeches? The Hannibal Lecter speech at Cape May, all his lies in the debate, windmills killing birds and causing cancer, the sharks and the electric batteries, etc..and how Climate Change doesn't exist and how he'll do away with climate change regulations if big business contributes a billion $ to his campaign.
They're already running an ad about what Democrats were saying about Biden's age and fitness followed by some of his most egregious stumbles from the debate.
Most of the public is not truly familiar with Whitmer, Newsom, etc. Put somebody likeable and sane on TV for 4 months and they might win through sheer Trump exhaustion.
Quite possible
Biden does not have a 50/50 shot at winning - that’s the point of the current exercise. If the game was still at the point it was last wed then there would be none of this. Biden and his team did this - not anyone else. Show me a campaign blitz strategy that bangs the drum loudly and consistently for the next 4 months with Biden and Harris leading the daily charge and I’ll stay put - otherwise this is political malpractice of the highest order
I doubt those millions of primary voters would cast votes for Biden today. You call Dems bad at politics. I guess you think the Republicans who run a vile reptile three races in a row as being much better at politics. Dems will rally around a new candidate. A female would be great to point out the abortion travesty. A Black person would be great to keep the minority vote. Oh, I think I just described Kamala Harris! Can't wait to see the Trump Harris debate.
Good for Nancy Pelosi. This means we have an opportunity of switching to a candidate that has a greater than 0% chance of defeating Trump. Joe Biden on debate night resembled King Theoden before being exorcised by Gandalf in The Two Towers.
The comments I've been reading about this, whether pro-Joe or not, are very troubling. There are too many recriminations back and forth. No matter who heads the ticket in November, fighting with each other will doom us. We have to unite. No Democrat can win an election when Democrats are at war with themselves.
The Biden situation will resolve one way or another. I won't have hard feelings either way, not because I don't have an opinion on whether Joe should stay or go, but because we can't afford hard feelings.
That’s exactly what I just said.
That’s what I think.
I expect thru much consultation that it will be resolved into or three weeks.Until then everything is for show.
I get and respect this sentiment, but I think it's wishful thinking at this point. Much like Biden IS the nominee, we ARE having this conversation, right now. The best hope is to unify after the convention, because it sure seems like this will be the conversation up until that point unless the Biden campaign finds a real way to change it.
Funny, not, how Dems are
busting on Biden when
SCOTUS just served up
overturning Chevron and
then giving a Crown to
Trump. They actually added
something to the Constitution
that was NEVER there before.
I was proud of Sotomayer's
dissent. She ripped Roberts
beautifully and without "respectfully". I concur.
Yesterday's ruling was another good issue given to Biden to run. But then came last week's debate. Trump has been luckier than the cat with nine lives.
Get off the debate; already
old news! We MUST keep
Trump away from the
presidency and have a blue
trifecta.
House Speaker Mike Johnson: "No one who is elected to that office is going to be prone to this kind of crazy criminal activity." He has drunk deeply from the cup of delusion.
Sen. Lindsey Graham: "The liberal members of the Court and the Left have lost their minds when it comes to President Trump." Graham misspelled "liberal". It should have spelled as "the GOP and the right-wing".
Yes, whenever I hear TDS mentioned I remind the speaker that it's the GOP that suffers from a terminal case of TDS.
"Trump is nothing to be afraid of" claims politician whose abrupt about-face suggests otherwise.
I hope that Lindsey likes the cell he'll be given, if he's lucky, when the Snake decides to do the "Night of the Long Knives" on him and others.
I saw where Trump said he wants to go after McConnell for retribution. I wonder what Mitch thinks of that? I would like to see someone ask Trump if Kelly, Maddis and MacMaster are on his retribution list also. Would that be something to spur them on to get off their high horse to speak out?
Kelly's already spoken out. And of course, they're on the list. So, according to a headline I saw, is Rupert Murdoch, age 93. If he had any sense, he'd turn his empire against the Snake who would do what he could to hurt him. And dump every pro-Snake on the network.
As Sarah has often said, he has to do it more than once and more vociferously. Same goes for Maddis and MacMaster and Trumpster's first Sec of State.(I forget his name who was once the president of Standard oil) As far as Rupert is concerned,he is ancient history. As Rhett Butler once said;"Frankley, I don't give a damn" .
Tillerson. The ones who weren't crooks or left because of scandal need to open their mouths. Rupert is ancient, but Fox is still his. If he told Hannity, etc. to stuff it, they'll listen. They should remember what happened to Reilly and Tucker.
Oh yeah. You jogged my memory Eva! Sexy Rexy!
I do wonder which of his supporters Trump would go after, if any? Graham may need to grovel harder than he ever has, once Trump is free to act on whatever whim he will have.
No. Golf buddy Lindsey is safe.
Yeah. He does grovel rather well.
A few years ago Steve Schmidt (who worked for John McCain) described Graham as one of those small fishes that live constantly by sharks for protection. Lindsey loves being near the power and will do anything for it. And it shows!
Pelosi is the same person who screamed ageism when Dems and R's wanted Diane Feinstein to retire. Hypocrite.
Maybe she now realizes her mistake backing Feinstein and doesn’t want to make the same mistake again. That’s not hypocrisy, that’s changing your course when presented with new information. Like the aftermath with Feinstein. Just a thought.
Underestimate Nancy Pelosi at your peril. Political genius, who appears to be staying not to defy age, but I suspect a desire to help bring forward the younger folks. To carry on the work. If so, good on her. But while this discussion continues, maybe check out what David Frum and Stuart Stevens have to say today at Chez Atlantic. Very thoughtful ideas on the Devil you know vs the one you do not.
Maggie, it's a good thought.
Well put. Wish I had thought of that.
Maybe she thinks enabling Trump back into the White House is a bridge too far.
I'm a bit taken back from the comments that it's Biden or no one, that only HE ALONE CAN WIN. That smacks of a certain wannabe authoritarian who's pitch was " I alone can fix it".. if this is in fact the case our future is dim.
As far as the " ageism" and pelosi being a hypocrite, well there was never a question on her abilities in relation to her age. This President has been under this cloud for several years and there's a major difference between the President and even the Speaker of the House regardless of it's position in succession. Biden needs to get out there immediately and do unscripted interviews and town halls and no teleprompter to include rallies. Only this will disapprove of the age questions and erase a " bad " night if he doesn't then we know it wasn't a bad night and he's essentially unqualified.
They did try to pin age on Pelosi, but they couldn't make it stick because she would disprove it again and again. Biden is not doing that. He needs to.
EXACTLY.
At this point I'm resigned to letting Biden and the Dems figure this out. No matter what happens, more likely than not we are completely forked as JVL would say. Either way I'm voting for the D candidate in November.
You have no choice. They are not asking your opinion are they. Whoever they run just make sure you vote for them.
Yep, all the reason not to worry about it, and vote for the D candidate in November.
You have to give people room to maneuver, and Pelosi understands that better than anyone. Even if they could make everyone stop talking about Biden's age or the debate, all it would do is build resentment and force things underground. That'll just lead to more anonymous quotes and infighting.
Hope Pelosi, who had a remarkable ability to hold House Democrats together in all the essentials, will have the same success in unifying the entire party behind Biden's replacement.
"Remember this, the president and vice president are the only two offices in our constitutional system that are elected by all the people. No one who is elected to that office is going to be prone to this kind of crazy criminal activity. What the court is saying here follows common sense and, of course, our Constitution as well."
Johnson is lying. The people don't elect the president and VP, the electoral college elects them. We the people have no right to elect the president, or even the electoral college delegates, this is a privilege granted to us by the states themselves. His suggestion that this ruling follows the constitution would be laughable if it weren't so sad.
Plus, what about Nixon? It's just entirely inaccurate to say no one elected to the Presidency would engage in criminal activity. Yes, they do, and we have an actual situation to prove that.
Why is nobody asking Biden to have a work up by a geriatric neurologist? If this is just a “bad night” he should want to have a cognitive workup to clear the air and reassure the voters. The fact that NOBODY has asked this question tells me there is a real issue with Biden’s cognition and those who know it are asking him to step aside and those who don’t or are in denial are doubling down. That tells me all I need to know.
He should be doing interviews. He's doing nothing to reassure anyone that this was just a bad night. I cannot understand people on these message boards who watched that debate and aren't freaking the hell out that he's our candidate right now. They have shielded Biden for months and months. He didn't do the Super Bowl interview during an election year. Who passes up an opportunity like that? They're hiding the Hur interview tapes. You think he'd come off well if those things were released to the public? And all this time, they've called anyone concerned about the president's capabillities Chicken Littles.
The Hur interview transcripts are available. Honestly I wish people would talk more about the psychosis of the country when comes to the standard for a democratic candidate and a republican candidate. The Bulwark would do us a great service to motivate us to action against the republicans and trump if they did that. Biden is the new Al Franken. Al was a decent senator who ought to at least have had a hearing. Now it’s time to beat up the likely nominee. Let the Dems and Biden figure out what will happen. Instead everyone has pitchforks and the mob is gathering to get Biden. Does he get any time to process anything? How many crisises has he handled in the past three and a half years? Does he have the right to have a bad debate, something he was never particularly strong in? Did his team mess this up? Likely. Is he old? Yes. Does he need more time to think things through? Likely. He’s done a great job running the country and all I hear now is that he’s not capable. How about let’s focus on the issue of even if the Dems win, the republicans will say they stole the election? How about what can be done about that? What measures are in place to protect the tatters of this not very representative democracy? We don’t talk about those things because they require some thought and action. Pundits here would do us a real service if they changed the conversation for five minutes.
We have a more immediate emergency before we can get to any of that other stuff. I know the transcripts are available, but we need the audio. I'm all out of benefits of the doubt to give right now. The debate was a cataclysm and exposed a pattern of lies, obfuscation, and cover up by people in my party who are in the president's orbit. And I don't think we can keep lying and lie ourselves out of this.
We don't need the transcripts and the Republicans should not have them, ever. Biden sits down for an interview on Friday with George Stephanopoulos , so we might get a better idea of how he does without a teleprompter. If Biden decides not to run, then I hope there isn't a fist fight about who will be the candidate. The Democratic party has been divided and a mess, and whoever is on the ticket must be supported by ALL of us. No hissy fits about "well I didn't get my way about..... so I am not going to vote." Everyone has got to understand what is at stake here. We will all need to work hard.
We are both entitled to our opinions. I do not agree with you .
How can we know whether someone has or has not asked for a geriatric neurologist evaluation on the president? Because it isn't plastered over print and tv media? We don't know what we don't know.
My only comment is why is anyone talking to Jake tapper
LOL
I think we're going to have a new nominee. I know there are people who are disappointed about this and worried how things will turn out. But Biden should not have run again, and he is not capable of running again, and we need to beat Trump. I know there are people sad to see Biden cast aside, but it's not personal (although I'm still hot at how much we've been lied to about his current state). But the man who was on the right side of ours screens for 90 minutes is in no condition to run a presidential campaign and serve for four years, and voters are going to sniff it out, and Trump is going to get elected unless we change course. His debate performance was equal parts abysmal and shocking, and is clear evidence of something serious going on that people are not being honest about still.
People in high places are going to start being increasingly honest, I think, and we're going to have an energized and revitalized party excited with a new candidate and a sense of purpose, and something to offer a public that overwhelmingly dislikes both of the current candidates.
It is all up to Joe Biden. I hope he and his team really ask the tough questions for himself and themselves, then weigh the pros and cons in the next two weeks. If he stays, he must be up for the challenge as a candidate, not just being a decent president. Replacing him is unprecedented, but so it actively working towards authoritarianism by one of the two parties.
I don't think it's quite sunk in yet with the Biden camp just how much of a pariah he and his family will be with a huge swath of the population if he runs and loses. He'll be a pariah with the very people who have supported him up until now. We all know - or have a very good idea - what Trump will do with his second term in terms of damage to the nation and damage to democratic norms. Trump is gonna Trump and we all know that, but lots of us, myself included, will look to Biden as the man who handed the keys back to Trump, and that will forever taint his legacy.
And when the Snake beats the pants of every other candidate named by wishful people, who will they blame? Sorry, but it's clear that the MAGAs are thrilled at the doom-and-gloom of the Ds.
Thanks for the "read" of the temperature of the Democrats in the House and Senate.