Agreed, I think it has made people a lot more uneasy and skeptical of Biden—more than Biden made them on his own.
What bothers me is Favreau and some of the Bulwark folks chalk it up to this being “responsible and a healthy thing for a party to do” but yet seem blissfully ignorant to the consequences of this 2 week attack.
Agreed, I think it has made people a lot more uneasy and skeptical of Biden—more than Biden made them on his own.
What bothers me is Favreau and some of the Bulwark folks chalk it up to this being “responsible and a healthy thing for a party to do” but yet seem blissfully ignorant to the consequences of this 2 week attack.
I don't know. I think it is healthy because we all saw it was bad and we can admit we aren't voting for a performer, we're voting for policy. Maybe it will at least get a few people to understand the President doesn't need to sing and dance. I think there would be a net gain of voters if we are clear we have some concerns and aren't blindly supporting Biden. Otherwise we just look like a cult like the other side, and I feel that's a way to get others to sit out.
I don’t think it’s bad for partisan. We are going to vote for anyone. I think it’s bad for a huge swath of voters who don’t pay attention. It’s just “dems in disarray”
I can see it both ways, so I'm not solid on it helping or hurting. I think addressing the elephant in the room is relevant but too much will eventually hurt. I mainly think how the discussions are had are important. The first days out of the debate, I thought the discussions here were over the top and reactionary. Now, the discussions are more productive even if I disagree. I do look forward to Tim talking to someone on the keep Biden side of things.
To an extent I agree but I’ll posit this: I don’t think there is anything Biden could do or could have done (other than not have a shit debate) to take these attacks. He does an unscripted event that goes well. Why not 3 more. “Oh he stumbled on this question or that question.” He literally has been doing things but they aren’t “enough” for the media. He doesn’t town hall “well why won’t he sit down with the times?” They will keep raising the bar.
I agree with most of that. I think right now, it's not bad. But within 2 weeks this will be settled one way or the other. And after it's clear if Biden stays or goes, then it would be damaging.
Agree with the conclusion but let me posit the following.
I like bill scher who is a good dem. On today’s podcast he thinks Biden has Parkinson’s because one of his doctors is a specialist neurological disorders. Like an hour ago that doctor released a statement on all his findings and that Biden doesn’t have Parkinson’s. His response “well did you do a test yesterday.” Like they fall for something the right wing media started, ask for evidence then get it and say not enough I need more. He could have the doctor do a press conference and people will say get a different independent doctor (which doesn’t exist) is needed other than this national specialist. That’s just acting like a Republican base voter. There is nothing Biden can do to dissuade these media attacks in my mind right now. Only time will help.
I agree with you Matthew, Migs, and OP Andy K. The massive amount of attention being given to this is not just Bill and Tim, and them sloughing it off as if it’s similar to the head-to-head Obama/clinton fight is wrong. The press didn’t take sides in that fight! So many press outlets are directly trying to take Biden down.
I also think that so many points Bill &Tim make as “of course this is fact” are debatable, at the least. I’m hopeful that this is the last “double-doubters” hate fest on the Bulwark and that someone who can challenge these “obvious truths” will be there (for my sanity). Questions and debate are ok, even at this late stage, but calling for him to get out or we definitely LOSE is irresponsible. IMHO
Yes, I support Biden and Kamala, and we get Kamala even if we stay this course. She is dynamite. Joe has never been a glib campaigner - I’ve seen him in person and he’s much better in the meet/greet stuff. He always had issues talking, stuttering, and gets little empathy, much less congratulations, for doing so well with this handicap. Like “The King’s Speech,” I wish we could highlight the bravery it takes to face that down.
So yeah, we ARE doing damage by stating this NOT as questions but as fact that Joe is not capable, that the past doesn’t matter (come on, don’t run on your record??), and that he has to cover every issue in every speech.
Oh most definitely. There are risks are everywhere. There is no comparison between this and HRC VS. OBAMA. NONE. those were actual primaries. This is some unknown delegates somewhere choosing for dems. Very very different. I also don’t think that bill and Tim that Obama and HRC were universally known. Other Kamala these governors are completely unknown.
I love Kamala. I would hope she could win. I just don’t trust our voters. Too racist and sexist.
Yeah I don’t by that (that talking about it is helpful). This would be like saying “that 6 month negotiating about Build, Back,Better was really helpful to Dems because it shows the American people how sausage is made.” Sure it does but 6 months of “dems in disarray” didn’t make voters comfortable with dems.”
Right. And Tim keeps saying Biden isn’t providing a forward looking message but Tim hasn’t given me a forward looking message on Kamala that doesn’t rely on the assumption she’s gonna play a perfect game and nothing will go wrong.
I completely agree. I haven't seen a compelling case. The calls for replacement sound too much like "well anyone can beat Trump" and that didn't work out in 2016
Yeah I honestly don’t know. There are risks everywhere and the risk of the unknown is MASSIVE but the upside is also their (but a smaller probability event).
The problem of a generic dem is they…become non-generic really fucking fast.
Yep. It’s like they think whatever happens the party comes out united and the candidate has nothing to attack which would be great but is impossible. The problem is no one has any idea who these candidates are OTHER than Kamala and Biden so they project their hopes and dreams. Then they speak and all of a sudden they have positions you disagree with and then the projection starts. Also the republicans have a say here too. They will define these candidates really fast
Yes. I felt Rick Wilson's summary of the convention is a very likely scenario. With Biden, there are some things we can control with the narrative. We are in completely unknown territory with a replacement.
Yeah I don’t know where I stand on that either. I mean he has forward looking policies like making roe legal, pushing Russia out of Ukraine, replacing justices on the court, etc but I don’t really know what else Tim wants him to do. The chances dems win the senate is almost zero in my mind. I mean nothing is going to get done (unfortunately).
I guess I’ll lay my cards out: I think America is deeply troubled and I view my fellow citizens with a lot of disdain. I just don’t believe that voters in the right states will vote for a woman or a black person or a gay person or a Jewish person, etc. As much as people complain about our politicians are old (which is true) it’s because a lot of white people wont vote for anyone that isn’t a man and white.
Jb was the nominee because he had massive name id and because he was old and white and dems said after HRC “we can’t do this again.”
Yeah, I think what Tim (and Bill) mean moreso is forcefully defending why he should stay in the race and a forward looking path to beating Trump in November as opposed to what he’s been doing which is sort of dismissive of peoples views. I’m not sure, I suppose I see they’re point but I also don’t think it matters and I think they’d poke holes regardless of what he had to say.
To your broader point, I unfortunately agree. I think the circumstances surrounding Trump 2.0 to create a potential for people to get on board with a Black Woman when they otherwise may not have but I think that assumption is also a bit overly optimistic.
Yeah I hear you making the forceful case but I’m honestly not sure what he would say that could ever convince bill. I mean what should he say? They get mad at him when he says “I don’t believe the polls” but also “I’m going to give it my all and win.” I feel like they are just fishing for the perfect statement that says “I fucked up and I’m losing” but “im losing and I will turn it around with x, y, and z.” I also think they would then pivot to well another candidate can do x, y and z.
What I feel like they are missing is (1) they think because no one really knows who these good dem governors are their popularity will go up (it’s equally likely to go down and (2) not grappling with Americans will then question can candidate x really be a good president.
Biden is basically saying you should and will vote for me because I’m fighting for you and I have been successful fighting for you. The problem is no one gives two shits how great of a president Biden has been because people hate incumbents (true everywhere)
I’m going to throw a theory I have at you: Biden’s problem is not age, it’s incumbency. Don’t get me wrong the debate was shit and he is old and people don’t like that. However I think it’s a parking spot for the anger and vindictiveness. It’s true EVERYWHERE. It doesn’t matter if you are left, center, right, far right, old, young, or semi-authoritarian. Literally every incumbent everywhere is losing and losing big.
I think you’re definitely onto something there… people seem to get much more dissatisfied much quicker nowadays and whether it’s justified or not, they take it out on the incumbent. Economy is the perfect example of this… Biden gets blamed for the rocky economy and even though he’s navigated it very well people are upset and therefore it’s his fault. I’m not sure our attention spans as a collective country can handle someone for 8 years straight anymore.
Of course we can. But tad to why we should keep the old white man:
Old is more than years. It’s the collection of years of experience both in the Senate and then with Obama as VP and global messenger/advocate for peace and whatever Obama wanted him to do. He learned about the statesmen of all different countries,
What troubles those countries and work with to fix it. He started peace negations with Israel and the Saudis, was going great until Hamss’ little jolt. 3 month war and Hamas is willing to settle with his peace plan
His charm and good will captured opponents. His good sense continued it. From my pov, he’s the one to convince
the Israeli
government to stand down
That will be hard as Netinyahu will go to jail right after.
I honestly don’t have any idea what you are trying to say. The war has been going on for 8 months now and it splits his base AND unfortunately he is pinned in because (1) Israel is broadly popular in the us electorate and (2) bibi won’t listen to anything we say anyways.
Agreed, I think it has made people a lot more uneasy and skeptical of Biden—more than Biden made them on his own.
What bothers me is Favreau and some of the Bulwark folks chalk it up to this being “responsible and a healthy thing for a party to do” but yet seem blissfully ignorant to the consequences of this 2 week attack.
I don't know. I think it is healthy because we all saw it was bad and we can admit we aren't voting for a performer, we're voting for policy. Maybe it will at least get a few people to understand the President doesn't need to sing and dance. I think there would be a net gain of voters if we are clear we have some concerns and aren't blindly supporting Biden. Otherwise we just look like a cult like the other side, and I feel that's a way to get others to sit out.
I don’t think it’s bad for partisan. We are going to vote for anyone. I think it’s bad for a huge swath of voters who don’t pay attention. It’s just “dems in disarray”
I can see it both ways, so I'm not solid on it helping or hurting. I think addressing the elephant in the room is relevant but too much will eventually hurt. I mainly think how the discussions are had are important. The first days out of the debate, I thought the discussions here were over the top and reactionary. Now, the discussions are more productive even if I disagree. I do look forward to Tim talking to someone on the keep Biden side of things.
To an extent I agree but I’ll posit this: I don’t think there is anything Biden could do or could have done (other than not have a shit debate) to take these attacks. He does an unscripted event that goes well. Why not 3 more. “Oh he stumbled on this question or that question.” He literally has been doing things but they aren’t “enough” for the media. He doesn’t town hall “well why won’t he sit down with the times?” They will keep raising the bar.
Could be wrong.
I agree with most of that. I think right now, it's not bad. But within 2 weeks this will be settled one way or the other. And after it's clear if Biden stays or goes, then it would be damaging.
Agree with the conclusion but let me posit the following.
I like bill scher who is a good dem. On today’s podcast he thinks Biden has Parkinson’s because one of his doctors is a specialist neurological disorders. Like an hour ago that doctor released a statement on all his findings and that Biden doesn’t have Parkinson’s. His response “well did you do a test yesterday.” Like they fall for something the right wing media started, ask for evidence then get it and say not enough I need more. He could have the doctor do a press conference and people will say get a different independent doctor (which doesn’t exist) is needed other than this national specialist. That’s just acting like a Republican base voter. There is nothing Biden can do to dissuade these media attacks in my mind right now. Only time will help.
Ah. Yeah. I see what you mean. I think the media is already getting bored with this drama, so I expect this to go just to the fringes soon.
What consquences?
I agree with you Matthew, Migs, and OP Andy K. The massive amount of attention being given to this is not just Bill and Tim, and them sloughing it off as if it’s similar to the head-to-head Obama/clinton fight is wrong. The press didn’t take sides in that fight! So many press outlets are directly trying to take Biden down.
I also think that so many points Bill &Tim make as “of course this is fact” are debatable, at the least. I’m hopeful that this is the last “double-doubters” hate fest on the Bulwark and that someone who can challenge these “obvious truths” will be there (for my sanity). Questions and debate are ok, even at this late stage, but calling for him to get out or we definitely LOSE is irresponsible. IMHO
Yes, I support Biden and Kamala, and we get Kamala even if we stay this course. She is dynamite. Joe has never been a glib campaigner - I’ve seen him in person and he’s much better in the meet/greet stuff. He always had issues talking, stuttering, and gets little empathy, much less congratulations, for doing so well with this handicap. Like “The King’s Speech,” I wish we could highlight the bravery it takes to face that down.
So yeah, we ARE doing damage by stating this NOT as questions but as fact that Joe is not capable, that the past doesn’t matter (come on, don’t run on your record??), and that he has to cover every issue in every speech.
Oh most definitely. There are risks are everywhere. There is no comparison between this and HRC VS. OBAMA. NONE. those were actual primaries. This is some unknown delegates somewhere choosing for dems. Very very different. I also don’t think that bill and Tim that Obama and HRC were universally known. Other Kamala these governors are completely unknown.
I love Kamala. I would hope she could win. I just don’t trust our voters. Too racist and sexist.
Yeah I don’t by that (that talking about it is helpful). This would be like saying “that 6 month negotiating about Build, Back,Better was really helpful to Dems because it shows the American people how sausage is made.” Sure it does but 6 months of “dems in disarray” didn’t make voters comfortable with dems.”
Right. And Tim keeps saying Biden isn’t providing a forward looking message but Tim hasn’t given me a forward looking message on Kamala that doesn’t rely on the assumption she’s gonna play a perfect game and nothing will go wrong.
I completely agree. I haven't seen a compelling case. The calls for replacement sound too much like "well anyone can beat Trump" and that didn't work out in 2016
Yeah I honestly don’t know. There are risks everywhere and the risk of the unknown is MASSIVE but the upside is also their (but a smaller probability event).
The problem of a generic dem is they…become non-generic really fucking fast.
Yeah. I think the people who are convinced Biden needs to be replaced have not thought out what could go wrong on your last point
Yep. It’s like they think whatever happens the party comes out united and the candidate has nothing to attack which would be great but is impossible. The problem is no one has any idea who these candidates are OTHER than Kamala and Biden so they project their hopes and dreams. Then they speak and all of a sudden they have positions you disagree with and then the projection starts. Also the republicans have a say here too. They will define these candidates really fast
Yes. I felt Rick Wilson's summary of the convention is a very likely scenario. With Biden, there are some things we can control with the narrative. We are in completely unknown territory with a replacement.
Yeah I don’t know where I stand on that either. I mean he has forward looking policies like making roe legal, pushing Russia out of Ukraine, replacing justices on the court, etc but I don’t really know what else Tim wants him to do. The chances dems win the senate is almost zero in my mind. I mean nothing is going to get done (unfortunately).
I guess I’ll lay my cards out: I think America is deeply troubled and I view my fellow citizens with a lot of disdain. I just don’t believe that voters in the right states will vote for a woman or a black person or a gay person or a Jewish person, etc. As much as people complain about our politicians are old (which is true) it’s because a lot of white people wont vote for anyone that isn’t a man and white.
Jb was the nominee because he had massive name id and because he was old and white and dems said after HRC “we can’t do this again.”
Yeah, I think what Tim (and Bill) mean moreso is forcefully defending why he should stay in the race and a forward looking path to beating Trump in November as opposed to what he’s been doing which is sort of dismissive of peoples views. I’m not sure, I suppose I see they’re point but I also don’t think it matters and I think they’d poke holes regardless of what he had to say.
To your broader point, I unfortunately agree. I think the circumstances surrounding Trump 2.0 to create a potential for people to get on board with a Black Woman when they otherwise may not have but I think that assumption is also a bit overly optimistic.
Yeah I hear you making the forceful case but I’m honestly not sure what he would say that could ever convince bill. I mean what should he say? They get mad at him when he says “I don’t believe the polls” but also “I’m going to give it my all and win.” I feel like they are just fishing for the perfect statement that says “I fucked up and I’m losing” but “im losing and I will turn it around with x, y, and z.” I also think they would then pivot to well another candidate can do x, y and z.
What I feel like they are missing is (1) they think because no one really knows who these good dem governors are their popularity will go up (it’s equally likely to go down and (2) not grappling with Americans will then question can candidate x really be a good president.
Biden is basically saying you should and will vote for me because I’m fighting for you and I have been successful fighting for you. The problem is no one gives two shits how great of a president Biden has been because people hate incumbents (true everywhere)
I’m going to throw a theory I have at you: Biden’s problem is not age, it’s incumbency. Don’t get me wrong the debate was shit and he is old and people don’t like that. However I think it’s a parking spot for the anger and vindictiveness. It’s true EVERYWHERE. It doesn’t matter if you are left, center, right, far right, old, young, or semi-authoritarian. Literally every incumbent everywhere is losing and losing big.
I think you’re definitely onto something there… people seem to get much more dissatisfied much quicker nowadays and whether it’s justified or not, they take it out on the incumbent. Economy is the perfect example of this… Biden gets blamed for the rocky economy and even though he’s navigated it very well people are upset and therefore it’s his fault. I’m not sure our attention spans as a collective country can handle someone for 8 years straight anymore.
Of course we can. But tad to why we should keep the old white man:
Old is more than years. It’s the collection of years of experience both in the Senate and then with Obama as VP and global messenger/advocate for peace and whatever Obama wanted him to do. He learned about the statesmen of all different countries,
What troubles those countries and work with to fix it. He started peace negations with Israel and the Saudis, was going great until Hamss’ little jolt. 3 month war and Hamas is willing to settle with his peace plan
His charm and good will captured opponents. His good sense continued it. From my pov, he’s the one to convince
the Israeli
government to stand down
That will be hard as Netinyahu will go to jail right after.
I honestly don’t have any idea what you are trying to say. The war has been going on for 8 months now and it splits his base AND unfortunately he is pinned in because (1) Israel is broadly popular in the us electorate and (2) bibi won’t listen to anything we say anyways.