Former Rep. Adam Kinzinger joins the group (plus Chris Cillizza) to discuss the Court's worst ruling since Korematsu, opening the door to God know what if Trump wins. Also, what would an open convention look like?
Highlights / Lowlights:
Mona: Are We in ‘Soviet America’? Not Even Close. By Cathy Young, The Bulwark
Linda: Her trip to Israel, where she was recording.
Adam: Cara Mund, a sincere Never Trump candidate who ran (and lost, but got 19%!) in North Dakota. Adam joined her on her radio show to discuss the state of the Republican Party
Chris: Gabe Fleisher's Wake up to Politics. Gabe has been writing about politics since he was a child and is a politics prodigy. He just graduated from Georgetown. (His Substack is here)
The Mona Charen Show
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The Mona Charen Show is a weekly, one-on-one discussion that goes in depth on political and cultural topics.
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Replace Biden and watch as the Democratic Party implodes. I would vote for Biden over the felon if Biden were on life support. Just get him to January 20 alive. There is no one waiting in the wings. I would vote for Kamala, but the American people will not. We lose either way. If we don’t pick her, we lose the black vote. Get over it and start talking about Trump and the Jeffrey Epstein files!
It wasn't just that "the courts won't save us from Trump," it's "the courts will save Trump."
Trump's Fabian strategy of buying time via delay paid of "bigly" for him in the end.
Kudos to Linda for "being embarrassed" for her support of the conservative justices, as well as for her positive statement about Sotomayor, who she opposed due disagreeing with her "judicial philosophy."
I would like to prompt Ms. Chavez further, however, on the very notion of "Judicial Philosophy", and whether that is something that has ever truly existed and if so, if it is really something to base one's support or opposition upon. You see, from my point of view, it has always struck me how frequently Originalism, or Textualism (or whatever 'ism' Republican-appointed justices have said they adhered to has brought them to decisions that happened to coincide with their world view. How wonderful it must be for them, I had always thought, that what they saw as their strict adherence to the Founders also came to confirm that the Founders believed what they believed!
I'm asking this because I have been asking myself something more acutely recently that I have been asking for 10 years, which is what it is we who lean left need to do from a political perspective in order to NOT have to find a unicorn to run for President to gain enough votes to achieve an Electoral College victory.
And I want to understand that in no small part by listening to people like Linda, and Mona, and Sarah, and Charlie. But it's a challenge for me to do so if part of the argument still includes things like "judicial philosophy", when an honest assessment should cause intelligent and reasonable people to move on.
And I think this is important for 'both sides', since today there is only one political party in place to defend the Constitution, and people like Linda and Mona--although voting for that side--clearly still find it pretty distasteful.
Biden should announce he will sell an ambassadorship to the highest bidder. The money goes to charity.
Seriously. What happens?
That would be a relatively safe way to throw down the gauntlet to SCOTUS and put this ruling to the test. Biden should follow it up by issuing a self-pardon, and put that exercise of executive power to the test, as well.
John Roberts has made his decision. Now let him enforce it.
I’m a life long Dem. Joe cannot beat trump and is not capable of serving as president. I agree that the fundraising is not an issue. The minute the dnc announces a new ticket, I’m donating big time. How do I, as a voter, get that message across to Joe? I already emailed the whitehouse email to ask him to step aside. Is this my only option?
President Biden needs to recognize the real mission between now and November is to WIN, using character if possible, but WIN. He must start creating headlines about excitement and fear of the near future.
Perhaps he could create a preview of the newly expanded powers that the supreme Court has bestowed upon the presidency. Have Merick Garland arrest one, or all three, of Roberts Alito or Thomas. Allow the media to freak out for 3 days and then pardon them with a big smile saying “Just Kidding".
At a minimum, order the FCC to suspend the operating license of Fox News and Newsmax for a week or mandate fact checking during their broadcasts.
The most powerful man in the world better start acting like the most powerful man in the world! Half of Americans have made it quite clear that a man's character is irrelevant in politics!
I’ll browse the comments to see what people are saying, but the Bulwark has gone off the rails and I’m not wasting my time listening to them.
Try Michael Steele's first podcast episode, with Rick Wilson. They take the opposite side in this argument.
I’m so disgusted with the Bulwark right now that I’m not sure I can. They really had the fortitude to invite Rick in with an alternative perspective? Because Rick thinks the Bulwark party line is batshit crazy.
One of the great things about The Bulwark is that they don't really have a party line. They are not trying to be "influencers", but are just saying what they believe. And in many cases they do not all believe the same thing.
In this case, I think they have been leaning way too far in the insta-pundit direction - saying junk off the tops of their heads with too little forethought. I worry that The Bulwark might be moving further in that direction as the roster becomes crowded with more and more offerings, requiring them to fill more "air time".
I think they have been intentionally anti Biden for months and they used the “debate” performance as an excuse to pounce. It’s been so obnoxious that I don’t think it’s in good faith.
So you haven't heard JVL being Biden's biggest fan? Or Tim on the flagship extolling the virtues of Biden?
Look at their Twitter feeds, nonstop agitation. Why? I’m losing confidence that it’s good faith and, instead, something else.
I think that's nonsense. The entirety of the Bulwark is, and has been from the beginning, rabidly anti-trump. Most of them have sacrificed their careers in politics, their influence in political circles and any hope of a job in an administration of either party.
At this moment, the main tension seems to be that any criticism of Biden might weaken him. I assume it's in good faith, that those who want to see Biden defeat trump don't want to see him weakened as a candidate. So that means all good people should bite their tongues and just offer their support. It makes sense, I get it, I think that the Bulwark gets it. But....that's not how we should operate. That's not how a thriving form of self-governance should operate.
There are very real, very valid criticisms of Biden. The right-wing is spewing them nonstop. There has been very little response from the pro-Biden crowd. The defense is weak.
We are in a dangerous place right now. Biden is a weak candidate. There is no real pro-Biden sentiment in the country. No big Biden super fans. It's almost entirely an anti-trump sentiment.
I see the Bulwark as speaking the uncomfortable truths. Sometimes very uncomfortable. Did we not all watch the debate with a terrible cringe? Can we not openly discuss this? Do we not all hold our breath every time Biden walks up a set of stairs or speaks? Do we not all get a pit in our stomach when we hear the "dog-faced pony soldier" story starting to wind up again?
I think Biden has governed as best as could be hoped for. I think the Bulwark agrees with that and says it on a regular basis. But we live in reality. The voters who will decide this election don't know how he has governed, and even if they know, they don't care. It's all about perception and stage presence at this point.
I know it sucks. It sucks to realize how shallow our fellow Americans are. It sucks to realize how little understanding the average voter has of the world and our country. It's a devastating blow to my patriotism and love of country.
But it's reality.
We are losing, trumpism is winning.
This is a full-blown break glass emergency.
Shooting the truth tellers who won't get in line and shut up is not how we get out of this mess. It's what got us here in the first place.
So many words! So many, in fact, that I didn’t read them all.
Clicks and paid spots on TV is their business model. DJT is their product.
Enjoyed the show—thanks
I know the chances are small but what if….Biden is holding / will hold on because in his back pocket he/they have one or more “October surprises” that will (thankfully) DESTROY any chance trump had of winning? This could potentially shift the race back in his favor (since there are NO other viable candidates/parties)…..
Great episode. I so enjoy this show every week-- even though this episode, like all recent ones, was a bit depressing. It's always darkest just before dawn, I keep telling myself.
Why so much hesitation/shade about the hamburgler?? He's born in America, old enough, and I promise he will steal far less hamburgers from the USA than Trump did in his first term...
I know how we stop this mayhem by trump... His plane falls out of the sky
I really hope Joe doesn't step aside. The plans and ideas y'all are coming up with... I just don't see how this can work. It sounds like it would be a circus tbh. Look, I think that Joe should stay in with Kamala right there so we know, hey, if something happens where Joe can't perform as president we've got Kamala. Let's face it, it's going to be extremely a tough task to ask republicans to vote for ANY democrat, but I think most anti Trump Republicans will accept a Biden 2nd term. The undecided voters I think Biden will win most of those by November. Independent's literally booed Trump at their convention, so there could be some votes for Biden with independents. But I see why people are anxious about this because Hillary had over 3 million more votes and still lost, which is insane!
I’m anxious but my god these ideas only work in a perfect world. The logistical challenges are ENORMOUS.
also, there are a lot of intellectual masterbation here to get to an answer you want. For example, there is no chance that voters will be “happy” in an undemocratic process for delegates in backrooms determining who 80m people will vote for. You just can’t paper over this with some intellectual “but actually…”. The other side isn’t sitting this out. They will put a billion dollars in ads saying “look what the dems did. They bypassed the first black Vp because they don’t care about you.”
Please please think about how this looks to people who aren’t paying attention.
Trump orders Seal Team 6 to kill an opponent. The officer refuses saying that it is an illegal order. Trump then finds servicemen willing to follow such orders and Trump also adds that he will pardon them in all events.
Good conversation. I especially appreciated learning abut how the money would work in case we get a Democratic candidate other than Biden or Harris. I get the democracy angle, allowing the convention to choose the candidate, but I worry that a charismatic governor who wins a big election in their state just might not bring that same star power to the national stage, and we would never know until the election was well underway. Refer to Ron DeSantis. They just do not always translate well. Of course Obama came out of left field and did pretty darned well! But he is an extraordinary talent. Maybe Big Gretch or Josh Shapiro is extraordinary too? BTW I've known that Biden takes the shorter back stairs up into Air Force One for a long time; this is not new info. I'd take the shorter stairs also ;-).
I found a lot of this podcasts papers over the difficulties and the logistics. Running for president is especially hard. Especially if you have never done it before. You are asking some unknown candidate to come up with a message for winning (and it isn’t some dumb slogan…campaign people look at their candidates strength and weaknesses and craft messages and strategy so that those resonate with specific voters in certain states. Biden may have an advantage with older white people so they craft messages for him with those voters. That isn’t what will work for Kamala. She needs youth, progressives and minorities).
Finally, the chances that the delegates are able to decipher a good candidate from bad is zero. These people are dem activist from 50 states. They vote on interests. The delegates vote like the house republicans did in the speaker vote. What will you do for me to get my delegates
Wait, wait!
What if the SCOTUS Majority is actually just trying to do all present and future presidents a solid?
For Trump, they've laid down a process so cumbersome (and fraught) that odds are DOJ will eventually give up on prosecuting him if he doesn't win back the presidency.
For Biden, they've at least made it harder for Trump to go after him in the event that the latter regains the mantle of American Emperor.
See, they're really just trying to make eveyone happy!
; )
Yeah, this will make it harder for Trump to go after Biden. But there are lots of other people he can prosecute - e.g., Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney - who have never been President.
I have a feeling the rules will change if it’s a dem
Oh, Mona - federal agencies are not part of the executive branch because they are staffed by libtard Ph.D.s who have actual expertise in facts. We can't have that.
Conservatives aren't worried about the people with Ph.D.s. They're worried about the political appointees, whose "expert opinions" on the law change, depending on what party is in control.
And an example would be? To be clear, my comment was intended as tongue-in-cheek; I don't condone agency misbehavior, whether by careerists or political appointees.
Example: The courts consistently rejected the Obama Education Department's Title IX interpretations, embodied in the infamous "Dear colleague" letter. Betsy DeVos went through the formal regulatory process to implement new interpretations that were consistent with the court rulings. The Biden administration recently reverted to something similar to the old, illegal Obama interpretations.
Fair point - overreach does not produce good policy, regardless of ideology or motivation. But do you seriously think a Biden presidency presents a more and present danger than a Trump one?
It’s so weird. Does she realize this is how the fda or sec works?
July 4, 2024
It's clear to me President Joe Biden, 46th President of the United States, will RESIGN this month as he no longer has the capacity to serve the United States to the best of his abilities. Accordingly, his great love for country and his unwavering commitment towards the best interests of the American people, will likely make President Biden the 2nd President in United States history to resign.
I wasn't surprised by the SC decision, considering what we've seen from the right for decades.
As I watched "A Capitol Fourth" tonight, it was a surreal experience to know that The American Experiment is collapsing before our eyes. I couldn't help but wonder what was going thru the minds of the many military folks who sang, played instruments, fired the cannons during the 1812 Overture, carried flags, etc. There's such a rich history and pride in the military for the folks who have died and are willing to die for our freedom; what must those folks think of the despicable, depraved, orange god king who considers them suckers and losers?
I thought it would be bad but…wow. It was off the chain
Just watched 4th of July celebration in the US Capital. Lots of gun fire and explosions- but everything seemed to be good. Where is all the destruction that Trump and the Republicans seem to find every where?
Ideology distorts. Whether you're left, right or center it's necessary to be aware of how your political predilections color your perceptions, thoughts and actions. Extreme ideology negates this necessary form of self awareness. Leonard Leo and his accomplices at the Federalist Society have packed the Court with extremist ideologues. The conservative Justices, with the exception of Amy Coney Barrett, lack the ability to engage in intellectual self examination. They seem to be in the thrall to the idea of the Unitary Executive, a concept of near unchallengeable presidential power that has no basis in the Constitution or in the history and tradition of this country. If Donald Trump should return to the presidency the Court will not restrain him. We will, as the Sotomayor's dissent suggested, have a king.
Linda Chavez has good points about an open convention. Of course it is all on the premise that Biden steps down in the first place. 1. have a truly open convention where it is open to all candidates who seek the nomination. 2. it demonstrates who the pro democracy party is. 3. it takes all the publicity away from Donald Trump ( which will drive him nuts) 4. it would create a certain amount of enthusiasm and excitement that isn't there now.
Keep on ranting Mona!
Step 1: break government. Make agencies impotent, make Congress a joke and unable to function
Step 2: grant absolute immunity to the head of government
Step 3: create chaos, or the appearance of chaos
Step 4: people will beg for a strong leader to take charge and fix this mess
Step 5: Orbanistic, soft dictatorship
Step 6: After four years of Trump, inflation jumps because of tariffs (10% on everybody 60% on China), retaliation and world wide recession results coupled with other Trump policies. Step 7: Democrats make an enormous gains in 2028 (similar to FDR in 1932 and the British election today where the Labour party threw out the conservatives after 14 years of rule)
Happy ending to this story, nfw my friend.
I wish I could hold your step 7 in mind as a light at the end of the tunnel we seem to be headed into. But as I've said repeatedly since T***p was forced to leave on 1/20, if he ever gets back in the Oval Office he will ONLY leave on a stretcher - hopefully in a body bag. There will be no 2028 election if he's still alive - and I'm not sure he won't set it up so that Don Jr. steps in if he kicks the bucket.
I was so glad to hear Liz Cheney say basically the same thing when she was on her book tour. He did his best not to leave the first time; he will make damn sure not to again.
Happy 4th, everyone. (/s omitted, barely.) Thank you so much for this discussion. I appreciate the panel's clear-eyed assessment of the current crises in our beloved, beleaguered country. I'm a centrist left Democrat who is beyond disgusted by the ongoing party gaslighting, particularly now that President Biden is telling Democratic governors that he 'needs more sleep' and won't be scheduling events after 8 p.m. What? What? It's hair on fire stuff, seriously. If that's where he is right now, then he is already unfit for office because global affairs don't neatly fit into the D.C. time zone between the hours of 11 a.m. and 4 p.m. What's the definition of being 'incapacitated' again? I don't know if someone else will definitely beat Donald Trump, but Joe Biden will definitely lose. And then the future blame for everything that comes next lands squarely on the inflated egos of two powerful men. *sigh* *face palm*
This action in the SCOTUS on immunity allows everything to change.
I know... what I'm about to say is heresy to many.
Before Charlie left, he and JVL convinced me no labels was a non starter.
Hogan, running in Biden's stead, as a dem, is a different kettle of fish.
Hear me out.
Maybe this makes the most sense when 'we' consider that anyone but Trump is the right answer.
Is it worth uncovering Hogan flipping as a road to success? Has anyone already done this?
R leadership in Md said Hogan ended his candidacy when he said we should accept the results of the NY hush money trial. Hogan has good cause to flip.
The only thing "you" need do decide is whether you can believe what Hogan says.
I think so...mostly.
In summary:
No labels was a spoiler.
Hogan running as a dem "could" be a winner.
Leaders need to embrace a winning solution.
I haven't seen why this wouldn't work, but dems are struggling for winning solution.
I think it's worthy of investigation for more than a slight underdog.
I say negotiate for the win.
Everyone walks away pissed off but we have a solution.
There's your miracle Adam and you're the guy to call up Hogan.
No one is better positioned to make that call.
IF it's something to consider, because Hogan would, we'd have next steps.
What's the harm in doing a workup on his management in MD and juxtaposing that with what he could do Nationally.
My $.02 says develop it and run the focus groups Sarah.
Or we can rightfully kvetch over SCOTUS' actions.
It just doesn't accomplish anything.
Whatcha gonna do sister? :)
You could probably find support here amongst the outcast moderates. But, c'mon...be realistic... there's no way that scenario plays out.
3 options:
1. Biden stays and we all rally behind him
2. Biden withdraws and endorses Harris and we all rally behind her
3. Biden withdraws and we go to a brokered convention. Most likely whitmer, Shapiro, newsom or Harris.
There's really no other plausible scenario.
Chief Justice Roberts accused the liberal justices of fearmongering. Let's recall what the Jan6 case is partially about:
“I don’t fucking care that they have weapons. They’re not here to hurt me. Take the fucking mags away.” - Donald Trump on Jan6 while observing the smallish crowd in the "rally space" and the much larger crowd outside the magnetometers.
So you have a sitting president inviting violence in service of overturning the results of an election. How the fuck, if I may speak like the former president, is anything more fear inducing than the Supreme Court clearing the way for this behavior to stand?
Talk about Kings, Supreme Court justices live that existence. They are accountable to no one. And they damn all know it.
And on their divine say so, their grant of immunity will inevitably bring impunity. If ever the man who would be king retakes the presidency. 🔹
For Biden to step down and Kamala Harris be anointed is not a strategy that will win the election. So glad to hear Cillizza and Kinzinger reassure us that the coffers of anti-Trump money will pour in for any Democratic candidate. Why settle for Kamala Harris when someone else (thinking of Gretchen) could energize the country and the world? We need to save democracy from Trump. (I am registered GOP, Never Trump, in a swing state who wrote-in a non-candidate for president in 2024 and voted for Biden in 2024. I have been deeply concerned about Biden's age and will not vote for him after the debate. While I will vote for the Democratic candidates for Senate and House in my district, Kamala will probably not get my vote.)
As Linda points out, a truly open convention where multiple candidates can make their points, it also provides enthusiasm, excitement and publicity. The latter which would drive Trump nuts.
1) send Harris to SCOTUS to replace Sotomayor ASAP. She’ll b-whip the conservatives. Also payback to Mitch.
2) Harris announces Whitmer/Shapiro ticket, who will win easily (hopefully) 2/3 battleground states (they won by >10%). Prolly good chance of all Midwest. =>270+
3) immediate support by all other D (governors, Shummer, Jeffries, Obamas, Clintons).
4) figure out a way to get the Biden war chest.
I thought whitmer was down 5?
Whitmer has little name recognition outside the Midwest. She could easily overcome that as the nominee.
Yes, to #2 and #3! As for #4, Cillizza and Kinzinger, in this episode, towards the end--if you watched--were adamant that anti-Trump money would pour in for a replacement Democratic candidate.
I totally had things to say back when the comments were disabled. Now I can comment and I don't remember what it was. Oh well, most likely it's something I've already said elsewhere anyway.
I think what I took away from this discussion, as much as I agreed with all of it, remains what I’ve been taking away from much of what has been happening in Republican Party circles for some time now. Indeed the increasing and combining Republican reaction to Brown v Board, Roe v Wade, Engel v Vitale, and later, Obergefell v Hodges has been pretty clear, and particularly in regard to Leonard Leo and the Heritage Foundation in particular. I’m not sure why Ms Charen and Ms Chavez should have been felt blindsided by the Supreme Court’s recent work. The Court’s current makeup has been a work in progress for decades.
We are surprised because this decision by the court is diametrically opposite the guiding principles of conservative legal philosophy. Last week, when the court threw out Chevron deference, which reins in the discretion of regulatory agencies, that was perfectly in line with conservative legal doctrine. This decision was the exact opposite - granting MORE discretion to the executive branch.
Four of the justices, including Roberts, have a background working for the executive branch. That gives them a different perspective, favoring the executive branch, which does not come from abstract conservative philosophy but from personal experience.
I guess it rather depends on what kind of conservative one is. They seem always in favor of more freedoms and fewer restrictions. That certainly seems in line with what the Court just gave the President.
As to the Chevron decision, it certainly benefits one group - litigators.
Indeed. For folks to act surprised is . . . well, surprising. This is the culmination of at least 40 years' effort. Judicial takeover achieves the goals that voting never could have. 🔹
I am not sure what is going to happen, I don't think it is obvious either way with Biden. Going by all my visits to numerous comment sections, seems at least online ( including most at WA PO), seem to be pro Biden on this. We have no real idea what those who aren't political junkies like we are, or not online all the time , what they really think. They matter a lot. They may not even know what has happened. The Morning Consult poll bothered me , seemed a bit too convenient , didn't go look at who specifically they polled or what criteria they used.
Anyway the only thing I do know is I am tired of arguing about it, and dealing with so much anger. I am not angry, I am sad, I don't think anyone did anything wrong or mean to me, granted, I am often in the group that doesn't get angry, or thinks politicians all have bad motives. I kinda give people the benefit of the doubt as far as motives go, because it is just guessing otherwise. This has turned into a lot more incivility and personal attacks..even from people supposedly on the same side as I am.
I think we have to wait and see what is going to happen, then everyone can make their own choices.
Also, re: Kamala, my concern isn't the left as much as the squishes, center right, swing, double haters etc...In sarah's pods she is very unpopular , even with other people of color.
I have heard repeatedly on here in the past that she isn't a good choice.
I know you guys dismissed the primary thing and I guess I get it intellectually , but , otherwise, it does bother me, period. What was the point if they can just cancel it and do what they want?
Anyway, been an awful week, and not sure how much more of this I can take.
SIgh
I wish they would come to a decision soon and end at least part of the misery, at least then I will know what is going on and I can decide from there whether to follow my instincts or not.
Angie:
Please remember -- even saddened and bothered people can pull others behind them, either in the right direction or not. Please keep plugging away. What does Psalm 30 say? Verses 4 and 5 are just about my favorite scripture.
\Vince S
Thank you Vincent...
I am getting repetitive and was wondering if I should just give up
Angie:
I have been listening to Rachel Maddow and Joy Reid "Live at the Apollo" this evening. Look for it.
Ms Reid cites many examples of brave people facing their fears and anxieties.
Keep the faith!
\Vince S
Thank you
Regarding the Supreme Court's ruling basically putting the President above the law. That will very nicely fall into the playbook of the Christian Nationalists, many of whom believe they are "under seige" and need to win by any means necessary to make the US into a "Christian country", i.e. theocracy. And of course, they see Trump as their tool to this end, even if they are not convinced he is a Christian.
They are not only unconvinced, they don't care or, more likely, prefer that he isn't, because that means that he is free to use any immoral means to achieve goals that they desire.