America is currently stuck in a negativity vibe, and it's shaping the media we consume, impacting how we look at the economy, and contributing to the anxiety of our teens. Can we fairly blame it all on Donald Trump? Plus, the brilliance of Victor Wembanyama and the age of the do-it-all center in the NBA. Derek Thompson joins Tim Miller.
Show Notes:
https://blueprint2024.com/analysis/optimism-pessism-youth-poll/
Another new follow for me. I could listen to him for a long time. He's very down to earth with his explanations of anything and everything and with you it's a perfect conversation that I really enjoyed.
One of the best conversations I've heard in any podcasts. Thank you!
It's been almost 24 hours since I listened to this great discussion so I may not be remembering this exactly. With respect to the mental states of young people, I wonder about the effect of the continuous drumbeat of TV ads for prescription drugs for bipolar disorder, depression, tardive dyskinesia and more. Yes, I know that young folks don't watch TV nearly to the extent of older generations, but the ads are so pervasive they must see them too. I think seeing these ads has to make viewers start to wonder if they too are depressed, bipolar, etc. Perhaps a bit of FOMO at work here? As an aside, and speaking as a physician, I believe direct-to-consumer advertising of prescription drugs has been a disaster and has contributed to the cost of our inefficient and wasteful health care system. A fantastic podcast and a reminder that complex problems don't have simple solutions, no matter what some post on Twitter!
Is it fair to say that Ideology in general is the refuge for people who don’t think, or don’t like to think about hard or complex issues?
This may have been my favorite Tim-era flagship pod episode yet. Especially as I'm listening the day after The Verdict, this convo is the perfect counterpoint to the intense churn of the news. I greatly value Tim's "ripped from the headlines" episodes, but this time I feel like my brain made measurable forward progress in understanding the tangle of our national political-cultural problems. I'd like to hear JVL's reaction to these findings, and then I'd like to hear some brainstorming on our way forward. Great stuff
This was a fascinating conversation, one many Americans would benefit from listening to. I have to say, Tim, when you get a guest like Derek, you really shine!
Wow, Tim, you hit it out of the park once again. I subscribe to The Atlantic, but have never registered Derek's name.
This was one of those - but certainly not the first - Bulwark productions which gave me the visceral sensation of my brain stretching in attempts to adequately comprehend all that was being said. Love it!
As for the negativity among Americans, I've said for many years and I'll say it again: the right-wing propaganda machine - primarily Fox - is largely responsible (altho I don't discount Rush Limbaugh, etc.) The first time I ever saw Fox Not News was in my parents' family room, when I walked in as my father was watching. My mouth literally fell open in shock and horror at the inciteful (NOT "insightful"!) rhetoric, chyrons, lies, etc.
I believe that Fox by far was most responsible for turning my father - and the rest of my family, who followed him - from someone who held multiple non-partisan elected offices, and was head of the Dem party in my home co. decades ago, PLUS worked in law enforcement for years, to someone who refuses to acknowledge that Biden won in 2020 - and everything that goes along w/ that mindset.
Fellow Atlantic subscriber here. I highly recommend reading any article you see with Derek Thompson’s name on it. He’s always really insightful, and never “inciteful”. He never really bothers with the headlines of the day, and instead does think pieces on larger trends, like a sociologist. Cheers.
I think I disagree with Derek's space thesis of depression -- Japan and SK are absolutely depressed; they are, in my estimation, way ahead of us.
While "most" americans have stocks... most have very small holdings in 401 k accounts. and they really barely know how to check their accounts - which typically in an HR website. And since the accounts are fed with biweekly contributions, the dollars go up anyway so... many folks don't really evaluate in an effective way.
As a fan of The Bulwark and Plain English pods, it was delightful to listen to this discussion. Keep it up Tim. You’re doing great.
The problem is simple: news broadcasters treat people’s perception of the news as if it’s news. So people are continuously hearing that other people think that the economy is bad, and understandably then think “well if people think it’s bad it must be bad”. Stop doing that. Just report things like “inflation is down”, “employment is up”, provide some context and analysis, and let listeners draw their own conclusions
I couldn't but think of E. M. Forster's "The Machine Stops"
https://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/classes/188/materials/the%20machine%20stops.pdf
Tim, please watch The Brainwashing of My Dad. A documentary that goes back to the start of right wing media and how successful that media was.
Everybody needs to watch that documentary. It’s mind blowing. It’s free if you have Roku. If not, it’s available to rent on Prime for $2.99. Trust me: you’ll be happy you spent the $2.99. Or sad. It’s a bummer of a watch. But it’s really enlightening. If you can handle JVL’s slow dancing with darkness, you can handle this documentary. And it actually gives actionable tips on how to somewhat de-radicalize a MAGA family member.
Related to their criticism on the media, I’d love a Dylan Thomas take on the perils of design thinking in our media and politics. Design thinking is the foundational thinking in tech and Saas, it puts the user or customer at the center of the products and experience. To encourage scroll or conversion online, this is good. For our politics and media, I think this is hugely problematic.
Hey Tim, what are you drinking for the breaking news of the verdict? I went out and got my celebration pack. Cuz no one has time for a negativity bias!
They're all great, but today's podcast was above and beyond. Please bring him back. And yes, you would enjoy Ezra Klein.
Hi Tim,
There is a really easy way to talk to someone who says that the economy is bad. It's usually my right leaning friends.I just tell them to whip it out.
Whip out your credit card statement and paystubs from December 2019 and April 2024. We can see what you made a d what you sent on groceries, gas, etc. I tell them that we can do an apples to apples comparison right here right now.
They usually balk at that because they know they are full of shit.
Ladies and gentlemen, Trump has been found guilty.
I could feel my brain cells doing calisthenics just listening to this guy. Thanks!
Tim! You don't know who Ezra Klein is? Oh boy lol. I figured he'd be in your guest lineup.
It was a joke
I’m an idiot lol
I thought he must be joking. Not sure if they've spoken, but Tim has quoted Ezra Klein's NYT opinions before.
Maybe I missed the sarcasm
OK. Good show but I just want to say that I saw Tim on Nicolle Wallace’s show when the news arrived that the Verdict is in. Tim - I wish they kept you on. I love Ari but I would love to see you there when the verdict is announced.
I agree the social malaise in pop culture has existed since at least the 2010s when shows like Walking Dead and Breaking Bad were popular, but I think it could be argued that it really got injected into the mainstream a few years earlier once South Park moved away from the content the show originally had, i.e. the difference between the episode when Cartman had an alien satellite pop out of his ass and the Douche and Turd episode highlights the shift in mainstream thought. I'm not saying South Park is the cause of today's social malaise, just that I think the shift in the show's content runs parallel with the broader American culture adopting the cynical worldview that is seemingly everywhere these days (and an incredibly boring form of entertainment, imo).
Cynicism can be a useful rhetorical tool for understanding the surface level of a lot of how our society is and has been structured and functions, but it very easily can become a rhetorical trap that leads to broader inaction if a worldview is adopted through a cynical lens. Trump (and Putin for that matter) uses weaponized cynicism because he understands that on some level people want to be cynical as it confers a sense of superiority, like they're in on some understanding of how the world works that normies just couldn't even begin to fathom. "All politicians are craven, why bother voting when it's a choice between a Douche and a Turd sandwich?" is a lasting meme because it has the qualities of a cynical worldview that makes people think they've stumbled upon something profound even though it's a pretty lazy worldview that excuses ignorance.
Check out Jean Baudrillard and his writings on Hyperreality, defined as: an inability of consciousness to distinguish reality from a simulation of reality, especially in technologically advanced postmodern societies. I think it can be a useful framework for understanding how today's social malaise is generated and perpetuated through the use of technology.
It's not just the economy. Some people are so programmed to believe everything is bad that they can't recognize good news. I posted an article about how murder rates had dropped dramatically and someone responded with: "That's what happens when we don't prosecute the bad guys."
Man this convo made me miss my Atlantic sub. Derek was one of my favorite authors and the first 15 minutes of this convo on the economy was amazing (Jerusalem Demsas deserves the shoutout she got also, she's awesome). Strong agree with his theory of cults around the issues of trust too. It's Robert Putnam's "Bowling Alone" dynamic meets the fractured media environment of the post-2010's meets humanity's default toward tribalism.
And yes, consumers drive media bias (Sarah will hate this) and that's because capitalism rewards the media outlets who chase niche/fractured audiences. Whatever drives ratings will drive their coverage, so just like the Lindsay Grahams of the political world, the media becomes a follower chasing a consumer base rather than a leader. "If it bleeds, it leads" on TV, "enragement is engagement" on social media. It's all about us and our negativity, fear, and outrage.
I am not buying the argument that consumer behavior drives media bias. If I see a magazine with the headline "Trump is greatest president ever!", I will not buy that magazine. The owner/publisher made the decision to take that stand - and some people will buy the magazine. Others will buy the magazine with a headline that says "Biden is greatest president ever". And some will buy neither b/c they are not interested in politics. The decisions made by the owner/publisher sets the tone and (like sheep) consumers follow their lead. It is more complicated than your guest posits.
Listening to this now - great guest for the show - Derek has a lot of great info and his podcast is a great place for more detailed information on issues.
1) do you have a link for the info on the Austin building study? 2) a note about Austin: one could surmise the availability of real-estate for building vs. the availability in SF, LA, etc., in conjunction with regulation disparity, may have more to say about the availability of real estate than the overregulation in CA. Living in AZ I see the mass building going on - because we have space… and don’t get me started on the lack of water …
There's always room up, which is the issue in that most of American cities, it's illegal to build apartments in up to 80% of the area of the city.
They needn't be highrise towers, either. In large parts of many cities, just dropping single-family-only zoning and allowing for various midsize forms would do wonders.
Hell, just letting every street in America that has more than two lanes allow buildings of any height would do a lot more than people imagine, and it's pretty difficult to argue those type of roads as some hamlets away from civilization.
The comment on cults was brilliant. You'd think they'd decline along with organized religion, but that is clearly not happening.
Jeez, this guy is brilliant, I haven’t felt this ignorant …… on just about everything in a while. Thanks for having him on the show Tim.
Check out his Plain English podcast for more. Mostly tech, sports, psychology, politics, and various intersections among these.
Starting following him today, thanks!
Gus, my thoughts exactly. Brilliant discussion, like listening to Ezra Klien but at double speed. Thanks for this Tim.