Two conservatives describe their break with Trump. Former DHS official Elizabeth Neumann saw both the mafia culture up close and Trump's disinterest in doing the work of being president. He also exploits the rising extremism in the evangelical church. And former Georgia Lt. Gov. Geoff Duncan says he's voting for Biden, and tells Tim Miller that "doing the right thing will never be the wrong thing."
show notes:
The Bulwark Podcast
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Tim Miller and guests discuss the latest political news for the flagship podcast of the Never Trump movement and the reality-based community. Every weekday we provide insightful analysis, political hot-takes, an unabashed defense of liberal democracy and long-form interviews that cut through the "both-sides" BS. Plus a few laughs to help you wash down the crazy.
An ad-free edition is exclusively available for Bulwark+ members.
Tim Miller and guests discuss the latest political news for the flagship podcast of the Never Trump movement and the reality-based community. Every weekday we provide insightful analysis, political hot-takes, an unabashed defense of liberal democracy and long-form interviews that cut through the "both-sides" BS. Plus a few laughs to help you wash down the crazy.
An ad-free edition is exclusively available for Bulwark+ members.Listen on
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Elizabeth Neumann
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While I appreciate Goeff Duncan saying he will not vote for Trump, he is naive if he thinks the Republican Party is coming back. The Republicans did this too themselves by the gerrymandering and love affair with the right wing radio and tv. When the election is the primary the racicalism will not stop. When the media echo system you live in will not be realistic or truthful then the primary voters will continue to drive the train. I would be much more encouraged when folks like Mr. Duncan start advocating to change the primary system. I think gerrymandering is beyond hope, but changing primaries could likely be done for federal elections by congress and maybe by ballot initiative at the state level. Republicans did this to themselves. Until they address the underlying causes it won't change. We'll see a new party first, but that too is hard to do.
The reason that I've always been an Independent is so that I don't get sucked into the B/W issue of trying to pigeon hole positions. I am telling all of my friends that there needs to be a serious look at the PR and branding manipulation that has gone down in this country over the last 40 years. And we need to understand that by allowing ourselves to be dumbed down we are responsible for where we are today.
Okay Tim, I’m now a consecrated fan of your show! I never knew about Elizabeth and her video and her inspirational work holding the guardrails up while working in the Trump administration. Loved hearing her work understanding the threat of Right Christian Nationalists/violent right folks. How she holds the entire situation is not in a them/us stance. But in an “us” way. Like “we’ve got this problem of how we are seeing each other…” and she and her colleagues are curious about actual solutions. Gotta share her!
Tim does an outstanding job with these interviews, and I'm glad to have them aboard. We should all be 100% focused on November, but during some of these interviews I lose focus. I sometimes stop I rewind thinking "WTF?, You didn't see this coming?' You know about the 1/20/09 Caucus Room Bad Faith Dinner? You saw how Mitch handled the Merrick Garland nomination and were like 'cool, completely Bible way to do business, Reagan would be Proud!'" Did they giggle along with all the Sarah Palin stuff? Did they nod along with Alito? Leap to their feat for Joe "you lie!" Wilson?
Then I switch my headphones to AC/DC so I can focus on finishing the lawn mowing.
"She accepted defeat."
Elizabeth Neumann is the definition of public servant. Her Christian faith is unequivocal, unchanging, unapologetic. I trust and hope she will continue to serve our country. We need her.
Tim, on days like this, you punch well above your weight. Extremely well done.
Great pod and thanks to both Elizabetth and Geoff, I am so grateful some people at least are willing to go where we need to go.
Bulwark on the road is thinking about going to Boulder? Ha! Come here into the Belly of the Beast-- Colorado Springs / El Paso County!
Great interview by Tim of Geoff Duncan. There was some “talking point” stuff that Tim respectfully pushed on, just enough, to elicit a little less R-speak and some acknowledgement of part of what he says: although he disagrees on some policy, policy is not a death warrant
Thank you, Elizabeth, for all you've done and continue to do. I wish that every American could hear you speak about your experiences. You really brought home for me that as bad as the Trump Admin looked from the outside (and it looked bad, real bad) it was actually worse than it appeared. Terrifying but I've bought the book to learn more. Thank you for being brave, staying true, and standing up. I don't even know you but I'm proud of you, is that weird? :) Seriously, though, you make me proud to be an American.
Really liked Elizabeth Neumann!!
What a terrific listen. We have more in common than we think and it’s fundamental core values that bind us together. Elizabeth and Geoff are the real patriots🙏
IMO, Christian nationalism is more a cancer than a spectrum.
Loved this podcast. It gave me some hopium that more Republican voters will think twice about sending Trump back to the White House. Sometimes you do have to work with the other team in order to save the league....which reminds me of how Trump single handedly destroyed the USFL.
This was a terrific podcast and needs to be shared with all those who are all in on Trump. Thank you for continuing to bring all sides front and center
Damn! Great podcast, Tim. Elizabeth Neumann was especially impressive regarding her comments on both the issue of religious extremism and the threat to national security posed by a second Trump administration.
I think there was a Next Level discussion a couple of months ago about Geoff Duncan being approached for the No Labels ticket, with a hint from Sarah or Tim at the end that No Labels had competition. Glad to see that this timeline unfolded instead. Good work.
One of the many reasons I now love The Bulwark & adopted it as tied for 1st must-not-miss Pods, is I get to hear from some great people I didn’t know about in the before times. I loved meeting Elizabeth & Geoff. Hearing their POV, experiences & stories, just good principled voices, was an absolute treat. Quality well interviewed show everyone!
MAN such a brownnosed fangirl.
While neither a conservative nor an evangelical, I am still a Christian devoted to following Christ, and it’s still dumbfounding and rankling to see how the Christian right has given itself over fervently to someone who seems the antithesis of Christ; I look forward to reading her book, as I have admired her.
I wish Geoff Duncan would have a chat with that admirable lioness Liz Chaney and tell her her hand will only tremble for a moment when she votes for a decent man named Joe Biden, even if he is a Democrat.
Next Level Tomorrow- question for Sarah. Is the better polling for Joe connected to the Trump trial?
Elizabeth Neumann lists a number of things that need to be done to put Christians back on the right path. What I don't hear her addressing is how to do that. How exactly does one reach evangelicals who listen to and believe MAGA preachers?
Only so much you can cover in 30 min. But part 2 of the book dives into the answers you’re looking for.
Alberta and French have articulated the clearest path, but it’s not happening before November.
As I listened to Tim and Elizabeth speaking about those who worked in the Trump administration needing to speak up, it struck me how many courageous women have come forward with their truth.
OMG. I don't know how, but somehow this is new to me. Is this new to anyone else? This has been memory holed like a mofo
https://youtu.be/GvjNzKo-zDw?si=AefOovx82NPSKw-w
I remember hearing reports of this decades ago but the Nixon White House audio tapes verifying it only surfaced about four years ago and it didn't receive a lot of coverage at the time or since.
It has always been a mystery to me why so many conservatives/Republicans, including those who have split from the party over Trump, still regard him as Saint Ronnie.
He played the race card with the announcement of his campaign commencement in Philadelphia, Mississippi and again with his comments about welfare queens riding around in their Cadillacs. This audio tape removes any doubt.
People can change. But Reagan was not a young man when he said this. It was less than ten years before he ran for President.
For those who haven't heard the tape this is what Reagan said about viewing African delegates appearing before the UN:
“Last night, I tell you, to watch that thing on television. To see those, those monkeys from those African countries—damn them, they’re still uncomfortable wearing shoes!”
I'm astonished by the idolatry of Reagan too. When I'm feeling miserly, I attribute it to his undeniable charisma and screen talent, but in my more generous moments because what is seen as his "victory" against the USSR and nuclear disarmament.
But this overlooks the fact Reagan was opposed to nuclear disarmament and thought it a foolish notion until a movie changed his mind. The Day After, created to change hearts and minds, did just that. It had such a profound effect on Reagan that it is known as "Reagan's Reversal". Shout out to AB Stoddard's dad who had the vision and sheer grit to get it made against tremendous obstacles.
https://time.com/6337667/day-after-tomorrow-cold-war-essay/
Anyway, Reagan blew up the deficit, closed CMHC's causing a homelessness crisis and Mental health care crisis, enacted disastrous economic policy we're still suffering under, defunded clean energy programs, ended free college tuition in CA, etc etc etc.
I agree. I think Reagan benefitted to an extent from just being around when the USSR collapsed as a result of being a corrupt economic system. And also that Lech Walensa and the Solidarity movement had more to do with hastening that collapse than Reagan and his policies did.
There is also the shenanigans around the negotiations for the release of the hostages held by Iran just prior to the 1980 election. It has not been proven but a number of authoritative persons from both parties still stand by the allegation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_October_Surprise_theory#:~:text=The%201980%20October%20Surprise%20theory,President%20Jimmy%20Carter%2C%20the%20incumbent
$14 a barrel oil did it!
It's wild how often Walesa is overlooked in popular cold war narratives.
Oh I loved this episode. I’m sure it was very difficult for Elizabeth Neumann to speak out and to address violence coming from people in her own house. I have been speaking out to my own people from the Left on Antisemitism. I’m a nobody so my speaking only goes to a few friends though. I find Geoff Duncan very brave as well. He is absolutely right that we need to concentrate on foreign policy. I worry Trump will hand Eastern Europe to Putin and I cringe thinking what he will do with China and the Middle East. I find myself turning into a Hawk and craving RINO.
That conversation made me cry twice.
Elizabeth proved she was a one four years ago, but Geoff just showed his true colors as well: patriots. True, honorable patriots.
I'm really glad Elizabeth went with that theme for her book because christian nationalism is a huge issue within the MAGA movement. Glad to see her delving into that issue in the wake of her experiences. Elizabeth really is a great patriot to be able to look inward into her community like that because she cares so much about our country and the threats to it from inside our own borders.
Wow I was looking up her book and was caught off guard that Elizabeth and I went to the same small K-12 school in Addison, Texas. If you get the chance, tell her there’s another TCA Trojan Bulwarker out in the world (class of 2010). Small world!
Hi Tanner! Class of ‘97!
Elizabeth- as a person of deep faith in the Gospel- well done good and faithful servant.
Why is there an ad on my ad free feed?
That doesn’t count as an ad because it’s Pod Save America😉
I had the same question. Tim's being friends with the Pod Save America crowd may have something to do with it. Maybe there's some cross-advertising involved? I'll never know, since I'm no more likely to listen to PSA than I was before. I hope that it was a one-off.
I did as well! I’m also listening to Nancy French and Beth Moore read their stories. I’m an Anglican (Episcopalian in America) so don’t worship in quite the same way and I find these women fascinating and so very brave.
"More than anyone else, Adelson can claim credit for transforming the GOP into a party devoted to bolstering Israel’s military occupation and its expansion of West Bank settlements. And the Israeli right, also bankrolled by Adelson, saw many of its political aspirations realized under Donald Trump’s presidency, a political turn that has fractured the long-standing bipartisan consensus on the Jewish state."
While the base might be motivated by religious fervor, the GOP was motivated to become the party of Israel by money and one billionaire's single-minded goal.
https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-israel-las-vegas-mass-shooting-elections-benjamin-netanyahu-7497d81e4622c2dcd609d6d737166e7f
According to Politico, Adelson's donations accounted for 25% of his total campaign spending, and Adelson was a self-professed "one issue man".
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/12/adelson-super-pac-gop-458380
This relationship is woefully under-reported and it is impossible to overstate Adelson's formative influence on the GOP & the Likud.
https://theworld.org/stories/2017/05/13/sheldon-adelson-american-behind-israels-right-wing
And his widow is picking up right where Sheldon left off
https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2021/11/08/miriam-adelson-picks-up-where-late-husband-and-gop-kingmaker-left-off/