Umm... the curb sign protesting dude. In all seriousness, how is that person any different than the character of Derek Vinyard, the neo-Nazi leader from American History X?
Umm... the curb sign protesting dude. In all seriousness, how is that person any different than the character of Derek Vinyard, the neo-Nazi leader from American History X?
Yeah it sucks. I'm a leftist but I'll readily admit there's people like this out there who really just want to be a different sort of brutal.
My whole philosophy is that if your politics is rooted in purely oppositional terms, you cannot be allowed to succeed. The only politics that ever lead to better outcomes are those rooted in the desire to build, to construct something new, to fix what is old, etc. Oppositional politics are how we get the holocaust, Stalin's brutality, Trumpism, Hamas, and yes, the equally exterminationist philosophy of some Israeli extremists.
That person with that sign doesn't want to build anything. They just want to be the one who gets to destroy.
The Bulwark should probably advertise as тАЬA Never trump conservative, liberal and leftist walk into a barтАж.and come away with nuanced pro-America ideas/doscourseтАЭ.
Admittedly a lot of people on the left really don't like the concept of America but I was born in DC, I've seen what robust public funding for the national interest can do, and it's not a Soviet bread line, it's the Smithsonian. It's national parks. I want more of that energy.
I love this place, I want it to be better than it is, and I think that so long as everyone's willing to accept that we're all working toward that goal we can talk, we can disagree (I frequently do with the staff here!) and we can occasionally even learn something or come up with a new idea that might work better than anything we came to the bar with in the first place.
I think what you're describing is true patriotism. And it's about time we take the term back from the party that constantly refers to this great nation as a g-d-forsaken shithole. (Sorry, JVL - I probably should have said "shirthole" to keep things family-friendly.)
It's a little complicated, admittedly, in that while I love the place and the people, I will readily admit that there is a LOT of stuff both historically and in terms of our present governmental structure and ideology that I do not love in the slightest.
Patriotism, at least as far as love of country is concerned, has two forms. Al Franken was actually the first person I read who articulated it in a way that clicked for me. There's the "love it or leave it" sort of patriotism that is more akin to a child's love of their parents - Mommy and Daddy can do no wrong. It's pure, but it's immature. That's right wing patriotism.
There's also a patriotism that's more complicated, rooted more in the love of what could be, that acknowledges flaws and merits equally and seeks to defend the possibility of how we could be better in the future. That's the patriotism I'm more comfortable with. Franken called that liberal patriotism, and honestly I think he was off on that, liberals are just as prone to the immature version of patriotism that the right it, it's just they express it a little differently. Fukuyama is the platonic ideal of the liberal equivalent of an immature patriotism to my mind, there is no concept more ridiculous and indefensible on the merits as the End of History, especially from where we sit now. It's a bit more high-minded, it's a bit more progressive, but ultimately it's still a very uncomplicated "we're the best" mentality that I do wish more people would move past. We don't need to be the best and we shouldn't think of ourselves that way. We should just aspire to be better.
I've always been of the mind that many leftists (not you, fwiw) don't live in the "real world". That their notions of how the world should be are rooted in theory as opposed to basic reality. Or worse, their notions are rooted in what the Twitter/Reddit masses deem appropriate, which often harbors no room for nuance. If they were actually committed to their causes, they'd be volunteering at a soup kitchen or attending City Council meetings. Ya know, putting in time and effort to incrementally make the world a little bit better of a place.
Yeah, there is a tendency to get too caught up in theory and too navel-gazey to actually ever affect change among certain leftists. Theory is all well and good, mind you, it's important to think about things especially when you're trying to come up with new forms of government that may work better or achieve better outcomes - but you have to actually engage in the work at some point. A lot of the leftists I'm most fond of are the ones who build mutual aid organizations and such, they know the revolution isn't coming any time soon, but there are still things we can do.
As to social media, yeah, leftist discourse sucks there, same as all political discourse. Anyone who isn't exactly your flavor of communist is automatically a fascist, etc etc. Tiresome. I'm not an old man but I'm almost 37, I do not have the patience to put up with some teenager who just read Das Kapital telling me I'm the bourgeoisie.
So well said, Andrew! Such a good distinction being drawn. It's so easy to tear down. It takes a lot of talent and character to build for the whole nation, left AND right.
Political horseshoe. The violent extremists are at both ends. (Of course, it is not a symmetrical distribution; the right has way more at this point in history.)
This is an accurate horseshoe description. I like to showcase it to fellow politics nerds like how we color dots for the house. Theres a lot more concentrated red dots on the furthest right tip of the horseshoe. There are still a decent and extremely noisy set of them on the left, but theyтАЩre nothing compared to the right wing fringe (which is now the mainstream of MAGA).
You are correct. But the number of extremists and antisemites on the far-left has dramatically increased in number following the completely unhinged response by Israel to the horrific pogrom perpetrated by Hamas terrorists on October 7, 2023.
The issue of Israel-Palestine has the potential to break the anti-fascist coalition in two, if it is not resolved during what I believe will be the Harris presidency.
VP Harris and Governor Walz must continue to run like they are the underdogs, even if this is not really the case so that Democrats do not get complacent.
No voter acting in good faith should be taken for granted or written off. VP Harris will have to stride the right balance on Israel-Palestine both as a candidate for President and as President.
What is your source for this claim: "the number of extremists and antisemites on the far-left has dramatically increased in number . . . since Oct 7th"?
I disagree- there are also violent extremists in the center as well! The distinction between violent extremists and nonviolent extremists is usually a matter of personality type.
In simplified terms, you find people who want to feel like they are unique, fringe, and an embattled minority and people who want to feel normal, mainstream, and common-sensical.
Even among the the center-left, there are clearly some who are attracted to the idea that they are in a tiny minority of people who sees how close we are to a complete totalitarian state and who engage in politics in a totally wild-eyed way. The precise nature of the incipient totalitarianism seems to drift year to year for these people, but their approach to political engagement, which is fringe and bizarre, does not change and they seem to relish being among the few seers.
Grew up in Saudi Arabia w/Palestinian families given 1 hour to get off the West Bank in 1967. Am as sympathetic to P cause as I am to Israel, and attitudes like that sign are why I stay far away from pro-Palestinian protests. Before you know it, the person next to you is screaming тАЬKill All the Jews!тАЭ
Umm... the curb sign protesting dude. In all seriousness, how is that person any different than the character of Derek Vinyard, the neo-Nazi leader from American History X?
Yeah it sucks. I'm a leftist but I'll readily admit there's people like this out there who really just want to be a different sort of brutal.
My whole philosophy is that if your politics is rooted in purely oppositional terms, you cannot be allowed to succeed. The only politics that ever lead to better outcomes are those rooted in the desire to build, to construct something new, to fix what is old, etc. Oppositional politics are how we get the holocaust, Stalin's brutality, Trumpism, Hamas, and yes, the equally exterminationist philosophy of some Israeli extremists.
That person with that sign doesn't want to build anything. They just want to be the one who gets to destroy.
This is what the Bulwark does well.
The Bulwark should probably advertise as тАЬA Never trump conservative, liberal and leftist walk into a barтАж.and come away with nuanced pro-America ideas/doscourseтАЭ.
Thank you for this and love the perspective.
Admittedly a lot of people on the left really don't like the concept of America but I was born in DC, I've seen what robust public funding for the national interest can do, and it's not a Soviet bread line, it's the Smithsonian. It's national parks. I want more of that energy.
I love this place, I want it to be better than it is, and I think that so long as everyone's willing to accept that we're all working toward that goal we can talk, we can disagree (I frequently do with the staff here!) and we can occasionally even learn something or come up with a new idea that might work better than anything we came to the bar with in the first place.
I think what you're describing is true patriotism. And it's about time we take the term back from the party that constantly refers to this great nation as a g-d-forsaken shithole. (Sorry, JVL - I probably should have said "shirthole" to keep things family-friendly.)
It's a little complicated, admittedly, in that while I love the place and the people, I will readily admit that there is a LOT of stuff both historically and in terms of our present governmental structure and ideology that I do not love in the slightest.
Patriotism, at least as far as love of country is concerned, has two forms. Al Franken was actually the first person I read who articulated it in a way that clicked for me. There's the "love it or leave it" sort of patriotism that is more akin to a child's love of their parents - Mommy and Daddy can do no wrong. It's pure, but it's immature. That's right wing patriotism.
There's also a patriotism that's more complicated, rooted more in the love of what could be, that acknowledges flaws and merits equally and seeks to defend the possibility of how we could be better in the future. That's the patriotism I'm more comfortable with. Franken called that liberal patriotism, and honestly I think he was off on that, liberals are just as prone to the immature version of patriotism that the right it, it's just they express it a little differently. Fukuyama is the platonic ideal of the liberal equivalent of an immature patriotism to my mind, there is no concept more ridiculous and indefensible on the merits as the End of History, especially from where we sit now. It's a bit more high-minded, it's a bit more progressive, but ultimately it's still a very uncomplicated "we're the best" mentality that I do wish more people would move past. We don't need to be the best and we shouldn't think of ourselves that way. We should just aspire to be better.
I've always been of the mind that many leftists (not you, fwiw) don't live in the "real world". That their notions of how the world should be are rooted in theory as opposed to basic reality. Or worse, their notions are rooted in what the Twitter/Reddit masses deem appropriate, which often harbors no room for nuance. If they were actually committed to their causes, they'd be volunteering at a soup kitchen or attending City Council meetings. Ya know, putting in time and effort to incrementally make the world a little bit better of a place.
Yeah, there is a tendency to get too caught up in theory and too navel-gazey to actually ever affect change among certain leftists. Theory is all well and good, mind you, it's important to think about things especially when you're trying to come up with new forms of government that may work better or achieve better outcomes - but you have to actually engage in the work at some point. A lot of the leftists I'm most fond of are the ones who build mutual aid organizations and such, they know the revolution isn't coming any time soon, but there are still things we can do.
As to social media, yeah, leftist discourse sucks there, same as all political discourse. Anyone who isn't exactly your flavor of communist is automatically a fascist, etc etc. Tiresome. I'm not an old man but I'm almost 37, I do not have the patience to put up with some teenager who just read Das Kapital telling me I'm the bourgeoisie.
Amen, Baby!
тАЬтАжif your politics is rooted in purely oppositional termsтАж.тАЭ An interesting frame to think about it.
тАЬтАжpurely oppositional terms,тАЭ as in Whatever it is, IтАЩm against it!тАЭ
https://youtu.be/xHash5takWU?si=v7DSbs0yBJ0xhIG4
So well said, Andrew! Such a good distinction being drawn. It's so easy to tear down. It takes a lot of talent and character to build for the whole nation, left AND right.
Thank you for that.
Political horseshoe. The violent extremists are at both ends. (Of course, it is not a symmetrical distribution; the right has way more at this point in history.)
This is an accurate horseshoe description. I like to showcase it to fellow politics nerds like how we color dots for the house. Theres a lot more concentrated red dots on the furthest right tip of the horseshoe. There are still a decent and extremely noisy set of them on the left, but theyтАЩre nothing compared to the right wing fringe (which is now the mainstream of MAGA).
You are correct. But the number of extremists and antisemites on the far-left has dramatically increased in number following the completely unhinged response by Israel to the horrific pogrom perpetrated by Hamas terrorists on October 7, 2023.
The issue of Israel-Palestine has the potential to break the anti-fascist coalition in two, if it is not resolved during what I believe will be the Harris presidency.
VP Harris and Governor Walz must continue to run like they are the underdogs, even if this is not really the case so that Democrats do not get complacent.
No voter acting in good faith should be taken for granted or written off. VP Harris will have to stride the right balance on Israel-Palestine both as a candidate for President and as President.
Kol Tuv,
David Hurwitz
Chicago, IL
What is your source for this claim: "the number of extremists and antisemites on the far-left has dramatically increased in number . . . since Oct 7th"?
They may not have increased but they certainly are noisier.
I'm still not positive that it wasn't somebody's op. I'm just not sure whose!
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more.
Yes indeed. Way more.
I disagree- there are also violent extremists in the center as well! The distinction between violent extremists and nonviolent extremists is usually a matter of personality type.
In simplified terms, you find people who want to feel like they are unique, fringe, and an embattled minority and people who want to feel normal, mainstream, and common-sensical.
Even among the the center-left, there are clearly some who are attracted to the idea that they are in a tiny minority of people who sees how close we are to a complete totalitarian state and who engage in politics in a totally wild-eyed way. The precise nature of the incipient totalitarianism seems to drift year to year for these people, but their approach to political engagement, which is fringe and bizarre, does not change and they seem to relish being among the few seers.
Yeah thatтАЩs my first reaction too. Is there some less hateful message weтАЩre missing somehow?
I immediately thought of that movie too! That sign is abhorrent and I hope protestors carrying signs like that were in the minority.
Grew up in Saudi Arabia w/Palestinian families given 1 hour to get off the West Bank in 1967. Am as sympathetic to P cause as I am to Israel, and attitudes like that sign are why I stay far away from pro-Palestinian protests. Before you know it, the person next to you is screaming тАЬKill All the Jews!тАЭ
Pretty sure that's not a dude. But of course I could be wrong.
Pretty hairy chest, then.
And wearing a mask in an open space. I mean, kind of highlights ideology over pragmatism.
Wearing a mask in an open space codes, to me, at least, as either terrorist or coward.
Maybe both? Or just a knucklehead.
Same