Thanks Bulwark for your continued discussion about the question of Joe Biden at the top of the Democratic Party ticket, running for re-election for president.
Yes, this discussion deserves a full airing and has been side-lined, ignored and censored far too long. All of the various pro's/con's of Biden stepping aside are finally getting the coverage they deserve.
It's my hope for the sake of the country, not to mention the sole remaining major political party that's not just a cult-following that Joe steps aside.
I would argue that the majority of Americans are "respectful" our fellow citizens who are LGBTQ+. Is it just me for whom the word "tolerant" in this context is like fingernails on a chalkboard?
You want to understand what Israel could have done differently? Fine. Commit to using only SDBs in populated areas. Clear potential Hamas strongholds with Infantry instead of bombs. Maybe don't post videos of your troops desecrating and destroying Mosques. Maybe don't have generals and cabinet level officials advocating ethnic cleansing and war crimes.
Israel could have committed to a long term campaign of assassination and targeted strikes, but instead decided on wholesale slaughter. Israel could have acknowledged it's role in tacitly suppoetimg Hamas to undermine the PA. Joe's analysis of the whole situation is clown shoes, and reeks of starting from the conclusion and working your way back. The blinders here are absolutely wild, and it really bugs me that the Bulwark seems to have committed to the position that tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths just had to happen. It's gross.
Oh, and you want to know why the Biden Admin started talking about this stuff publicly? It's because they communicated it privately, and the Israelis gave us the finger. So at this point? Fuck 'em.
I generally like Joe Walsh and think he’s a decent guy, but I have to disagree with his opinion that Biden should only be expressing disagreement with Netanyahu in private. We all know that if he was only pressuring Netanyahu behind the scenes, all we would hear from commentators like Joe Walsh (maybe not Walsh himself but certainly many, many Never Trump commentators) is criticism that Biden is being too weak and passive in his relationship with Israel. Commentators like this never give Biden the benefit of the doubt and assume he is working things behind the scenes, even though Biden obviously does so and is very good at it.
He’s right : I Disagree, like many who heard this podcast
Sure, Joe is right about checks before anybody gets a weapon — backgrounds, etc.
But:
His reasoning about 18yo should be able to get an assault rifle or handgun bc they’re old enough to enlist in military is an old, tired and wrong headed argument.
Young Soldiers are supervised, trained rigorously and subject to strict discipline and consequences if they fuck up and break safety regulations.
Joe should be smart enough to recognize this distinction and qualify his ideological, libertarian position on this question.
I’m not the first person to make this crucial point.
As a former Marine, I learned to handle firearms with the highest level of respect for safety. It is branded into your brain, and permanent muscle memory !
Too many 2nd Amendment ideologues carry a cavalier attitude about placing weapons into untrained, unsupervised, careless and immature hands.
As I interpret it, it effectively means holding out on openly advocating (even reluctantly) a vote for Biden over Trump until down the road, in the hopes of somehow extracting something of value before putting out for Joe.
I get the reality of the impact of doing so will have on your reputation and prospects within the GOP as you wear the scarlet J.
But … we’re past that, and these cutesy games are causing great harm. In this critical time 6 months ahead of the election, NOT advocating for Biden effectively reinforces “Trump is bad but Biden is worse” permission structure. (I see Sununu whenever I think of this.) The clock is ticking on turning this around. We must see prominent Republicans start making the argument for a Biden vote, in a concerted manner, soon and loud.
I salute all of your efforts, Tim, to try to glue the herd of cats coalition together ranging from the absolutely never Trump to the hate Trump but I gotta be me and surely there is some theoretical scenario in which Biden could -- not that he has, but he could in an alternate universe -- do something soooooooooo bad that I would have to put my angry foot down, because I do have feet and nobody can tell me that I have to vote for Trump but don't get me wrong, I don't like Trump you are still listening to me, aren't you because I am saying something very nuanced you won't hear on the Bulwark and it seems you really trying to undermine my personal autonomy and say I would have to vote for someone besides Trump when truly something awful could happen etc. ad nauseum.
So sick of it.
Walsh, obviously, is not obnoxious as are so many of the others - but I think, as a political species, you have assessed the red liners correctly when you say it is about self-actualization, and not about electoral reality.
This podcast covered two topics that are of intense interest to me. The war between Israel and Hamas and the “war’ between The Bulwark and The Dispatch (ok, “war” may be too strong a term, the ongoing disagreement).
First on Israel, Tim and I have been arguing about this via email for months and mostly, I think we have irritated each other. While I would never vote for Trump, I too have felt exasperated by the Biden Admin “pivot” on Israel.
What is important to understand is Hamas does not have a military strategy. Hamas has a media strategy and uses the media in the West, including in the U.S., as a force multiplier. The latest numbers out of Gaza I have heard is there is more or less a 1:1 ratio civilian death to terrorist death. While any unwanted death is of course a tragedy, this is an unprecedented low number of civilians killed relative to the number of terrorists and in the most complicated urban environment every fought (at least in modern history according to urban war expert John Spencer). So, the entire conversation being had in America about the need for “frank conversations” with the Israelis about “restraining the Israelis as if the Israelis were just pissed of cowboys killing anything in sight is wrong on the facts and wrong on the broader strategy. Perhaps Netanyahu should have been developing a “Day After” plan and perhaps there is criticism that is warranted for the failure to do so. But the absence of a “Day After” plan is different than suggesting the Israelis are recklessly and indiscriminately killing Palestinians when they are not (and which Palestinians do in fact do to Israelis when given the opportunity, we should remember).
Suggesting or intimating falsely that Israel is killing civilians indiscriminately simply feeds the media narrative Hamas wants. The long-term rhetorical slide by the Biden Admin culminated with the suggestion that shipment of some offensive weapons would be halted. That only helps Hamas in their media narrative and strengthens their resolve. Any leader of Israel is going into Rafah to kill or capture the remaining fighters and leaders. To do anything else would be to hand Hamas (and Iran, China and Russia) a victory.
With respect to Never Trumpers now voting for Trump because of Israel, I would only say I don’t know how any patriotic American could ever vote for Donald Trump. Full stop. That does not mean I love the Dems. I still believe in the classical liberalism I did in 2016, so I get very Dispatchian when I hear folks at The Bulwark speak so comfortably about being in the Dem coalition. Color me unimpressed with the Dems. But I am at my most Bulwarkian when I hear folks at The Dispatch describe Joe Biden as a risk to the constitutional order in the same vein as Trump is. That is hogwash. Trump is a threat and Biden is not (neither is Kamala—though I throw up in my mouth a little bit with the thought of her as President).
I could go on, but I have probably irritated enough folks with what I have written thus far.
ET is a key US interest in Africa, too, and ET was very unhappy with the US (China has been providing ET with large amounts of foreign aid and ET is feeling less beholden) so I don’t think that’s it. But I think you hit the cause - there is a far larger pro Israel constituency in the US. Politicians on both sides will ignore injustice if they think they don’t have the political capital to do anything about it. I’m surprised that Walsh - who himself says that he’ll never hold political office again - still operates like that.
I love Joe, thanks, wouldn't mind him being on again..
A lot of former Republican men remind me of my dad who was a Reagan Conservative...and I loved him to death, even though him and I didn't agree on a lot of political things...lol
Not really into Monday morning quarterbacking, 3.5 yrs later on what Biden should have done. Does no one any good. But we all deal. If it were an easy job, perhaps there would be dozens of candidates. As for Biden’s age and stamina, if he were to pass in first month of office, I would be fine, so fine with Harris.
My biggest push today is polls. I believed them in 2016 when the moron first ran, had Clinton slightly ahead. Even after the Comey BS, numbers still looked OK. Then late night Nov 8, 2016..
Have never depended on polls again. That and the Electoral College sucks.
So sitting here in mid May election year, I won’t listen to polls. Support my D candidates however I can. Both campaigns are much smarter than I and most of TV broadcasters. Organizations such as Bulwark are there to do a service in support of the elections. I learn lots, so I can have good convos with those willing. But the polls turn me off.
Tim Suggestion: Oaths- do they mean anything anymore.
Thank you both for so adequately expressing my frustration with Jonah and many of The Dispatch crew. I am a subscriber, I listen to their podcasts and read their content. Not surprising, Nick is my favorite but I find the rest of them to be maddening. Right now is not the time for Jonah and Steve to be waxing poetic about philosophy, pull the lever for Biden and use your influence to get us over the line in 2024 with an audience that is generally more conservative than The Bulwark audience but still highly Trump skeptical.
Very good show, Joe and Tim are men of exceptional character, and I think people sometimes forget how much they lost by standing up for democracy. Same with Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger. I hope that if my "people" were doing something as atrocious as today's Republicans that I would have the courage of my convictions as the Never Trumper's do. One quibble with Joe regarding AR-15's and him thinking 18 year olds should have free access to them b/c they fight in the military. When you are in the military you most certainly do NOT have free access. The military is extremely strict about firearm safety and significantly limits when and where soldiers can be armed. They should be outlawed for civilian use, or at least have them at range where you can rent them or something of the sort.
Thanks Bulwark for your continued discussion about the question of Joe Biden at the top of the Democratic Party ticket, running for re-election for president.
Yes, this discussion deserves a full airing and has been side-lined, ignored and censored far too long. All of the various pro's/con's of Biden stepping aside are finally getting the coverage they deserve.
It's my hope for the sake of the country, not to mention the sole remaining major political party that's not just a cult-following that Joe steps aside.
I would argue that the majority of Americans are "respectful" our fellow citizens who are LGBTQ+. Is it just me for whom the word "tolerant" in this context is like fingernails on a chalkboard?
You want to understand what Israel could have done differently? Fine. Commit to using only SDBs in populated areas. Clear potential Hamas strongholds with Infantry instead of bombs. Maybe don't post videos of your troops desecrating and destroying Mosques. Maybe don't have generals and cabinet level officials advocating ethnic cleansing and war crimes.
Israel could have committed to a long term campaign of assassination and targeted strikes, but instead decided on wholesale slaughter. Israel could have acknowledged it's role in tacitly suppoetimg Hamas to undermine the PA. Joe's analysis of the whole situation is clown shoes, and reeks of starting from the conclusion and working your way back. The blinders here are absolutely wild, and it really bugs me that the Bulwark seems to have committed to the position that tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths just had to happen. It's gross.
Oh, and you want to know why the Biden Admin started talking about this stuff publicly? It's because they communicated it privately, and the Israelis gave us the finger. So at this point? Fuck 'em.
Excellent! And I'm stealing your idea that voting is not about self actualization, but a chicken or fish issue. Love this; thanks for all you do.
I generally like Joe Walsh and think he’s a decent guy, but I have to disagree with his opinion that Biden should only be expressing disagreement with Netanyahu in private. We all know that if he was only pressuring Netanyahu behind the scenes, all we would hear from commentators like Joe Walsh (maybe not Walsh himself but certainly many, many Never Trump commentators) is criticism that Biden is being too weak and passive in his relationship with Israel. Commentators like this never give Biden the benefit of the doubt and assume he is working things behind the scenes, even though Biden obviously does so and is very good at it.
Joe Walsh = HERO. Keep talking.
Joe Walsh on 18 yo carrying guns:
He’s right : I Disagree, like many who heard this podcast
Sure, Joe is right about checks before anybody gets a weapon — backgrounds, etc.
But:
His reasoning about 18yo should be able to get an assault rifle or handgun bc they’re old enough to enlist in military is an old, tired and wrong headed argument.
Young Soldiers are supervised, trained rigorously and subject to strict discipline and consequences if they fuck up and break safety regulations.
Joe should be smart enough to recognize this distinction and qualify his ideological, libertarian position on this question.
I’m not the first person to make this crucial point.
As a former Marine, I learned to handle firearms with the highest level of respect for safety. It is branded into your brain, and permanent muscle memory !
Too many 2nd Amendment ideologues carry a cavalier attitude about placing weapons into untrained, unsupervised, careless and immature hands.
Regarding being a “cheap date” for Biden …
As I interpret it, it effectively means holding out on openly advocating (even reluctantly) a vote for Biden over Trump until down the road, in the hopes of somehow extracting something of value before putting out for Joe.
I get the reality of the impact of doing so will have on your reputation and prospects within the GOP as you wear the scarlet J.
But … we’re past that, and these cutesy games are causing great harm. In this critical time 6 months ahead of the election, NOT advocating for Biden effectively reinforces “Trump is bad but Biden is worse” permission structure. (I see Sununu whenever I think of this.) The clock is ticking on turning this around. We must see prominent Republicans start making the argument for a Biden vote, in a concerted manner, soon and loud.
I salute all of your efforts, Tim, to try to glue the herd of cats coalition together ranging from the absolutely never Trump to the hate Trump but I gotta be me and surely there is some theoretical scenario in which Biden could -- not that he has, but he could in an alternate universe -- do something soooooooooo bad that I would have to put my angry foot down, because I do have feet and nobody can tell me that I have to vote for Trump but don't get me wrong, I don't like Trump you are still listening to me, aren't you because I am saying something very nuanced you won't hear on the Bulwark and it seems you really trying to undermine my personal autonomy and say I would have to vote for someone besides Trump when truly something awful could happen etc. ad nauseum.
So sick of it.
Walsh, obviously, is not obnoxious as are so many of the others - but I think, as a political species, you have assessed the red liners correctly when you say it is about self-actualization, and not about electoral reality.
This podcast covered two topics that are of intense interest to me. The war between Israel and Hamas and the “war’ between The Bulwark and The Dispatch (ok, “war” may be too strong a term, the ongoing disagreement).
First on Israel, Tim and I have been arguing about this via email for months and mostly, I think we have irritated each other. While I would never vote for Trump, I too have felt exasperated by the Biden Admin “pivot” on Israel.
What is important to understand is Hamas does not have a military strategy. Hamas has a media strategy and uses the media in the West, including in the U.S., as a force multiplier. The latest numbers out of Gaza I have heard is there is more or less a 1:1 ratio civilian death to terrorist death. While any unwanted death is of course a tragedy, this is an unprecedented low number of civilians killed relative to the number of terrorists and in the most complicated urban environment every fought (at least in modern history according to urban war expert John Spencer). So, the entire conversation being had in America about the need for “frank conversations” with the Israelis about “restraining the Israelis as if the Israelis were just pissed of cowboys killing anything in sight is wrong on the facts and wrong on the broader strategy. Perhaps Netanyahu should have been developing a “Day After” plan and perhaps there is criticism that is warranted for the failure to do so. But the absence of a “Day After” plan is different than suggesting the Israelis are recklessly and indiscriminately killing Palestinians when they are not (and which Palestinians do in fact do to Israelis when given the opportunity, we should remember).
Suggesting or intimating falsely that Israel is killing civilians indiscriminately simply feeds the media narrative Hamas wants. The long-term rhetorical slide by the Biden Admin culminated with the suggestion that shipment of some offensive weapons would be halted. That only helps Hamas in their media narrative and strengthens their resolve. Any leader of Israel is going into Rafah to kill or capture the remaining fighters and leaders. To do anything else would be to hand Hamas (and Iran, China and Russia) a victory.
With respect to Never Trumpers now voting for Trump because of Israel, I would only say I don’t know how any patriotic American could ever vote for Donald Trump. Full stop. That does not mean I love the Dems. I still believe in the classical liberalism I did in 2016, so I get very Dispatchian when I hear folks at The Bulwark speak so comfortably about being in the Dem coalition. Color me unimpressed with the Dems. But I am at my most Bulwarkian when I hear folks at The Dispatch describe Joe Biden as a risk to the constitutional order in the same vein as Trump is. That is hogwash. Trump is a threat and Biden is not (neither is Kamala—though I throw up in my mouth a little bit with the thought of her as President).
I could go on, but I have probably irritated enough folks with what I have written thus far.
ET is a key US interest in Africa, too, and ET was very unhappy with the US (China has been providing ET with large amounts of foreign aid and ET is feeling less beholden) so I don’t think that’s it. But I think you hit the cause - there is a far larger pro Israel constituency in the US. Politicians on both sides will ignore injustice if they think they don’t have the political capital to do anything about it. I’m surprised that Walsh - who himself says that he’ll never hold political office again - still operates like that.
Show her YouTube clips of Aussie rugby league player, Ian Roberts. He’s brutal … and openly gay.
I love Joe, thanks, wouldn't mind him being on again..
A lot of former Republican men remind me of my dad who was a Reagan Conservative...and I loved him to death, even though him and I didn't agree on a lot of political things...lol
Not really into Monday morning quarterbacking, 3.5 yrs later on what Biden should have done. Does no one any good. But we all deal. If it were an easy job, perhaps there would be dozens of candidates. As for Biden’s age and stamina, if he were to pass in first month of office, I would be fine, so fine with Harris.
My biggest push today is polls. I believed them in 2016 when the moron first ran, had Clinton slightly ahead. Even after the Comey BS, numbers still looked OK. Then late night Nov 8, 2016..
Have never depended on polls again. That and the Electoral College sucks.
So sitting here in mid May election year, I won’t listen to polls. Support my D candidates however I can. Both campaigns are much smarter than I and most of TV broadcasters. Organizations such as Bulwark are there to do a service in support of the elections. I learn lots, so I can have good convos with those willing. But the polls turn me off.
Tim Suggestion: Oaths- do they mean anything anymore.
Thank you both for so adequately expressing my frustration with Jonah and many of The Dispatch crew. I am a subscriber, I listen to their podcasts and read their content. Not surprising, Nick is my favorite but I find the rest of them to be maddening. Right now is not the time for Jonah and Steve to be waxing poetic about philosophy, pull the lever for Biden and use your influence to get us over the line in 2024 with an audience that is generally more conservative than The Bulwark audience but still highly Trump skeptical.
That is exactly me...
Very good show, Joe and Tim are men of exceptional character, and I think people sometimes forget how much they lost by standing up for democracy. Same with Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger. I hope that if my "people" were doing something as atrocious as today's Republicans that I would have the courage of my convictions as the Never Trumper's do. One quibble with Joe regarding AR-15's and him thinking 18 year olds should have free access to them b/c they fight in the military. When you are in the military you most certainly do NOT have free access. The military is extremely strict about firearm safety and significantly limits when and where soldiers can be armed. They should be outlawed for civilian use, or at least have them at range where you can rent them or something of the sort.
Had the same thought on 18 yr olds in the military.
I’m open to allowing an 18 year old to have a gun if subject to same training and controls as the military.
Less excited about just about any 18 yr old with $700 being able to walk into a gun shop and buying an AR-15.