While I found it extremely depressing, I think the focus on if it was "good" or not needs to come from what the film showed us, not what it didn't. The mismatch between Gaga & Phonenix, the darkness/ grey, and the fractured scenes that do not end in a climax, seem to indicate this is how Arthur's brain was experiencing life.
As a fractured person, his fantasies never complete themselves, everything is grandiose (ex: having an incredibly talented singer in his corner singing just to him), because that is how he experiences life from inside his head.
This is much more about how the Joker experiences the world than how the world experiences the Joker.
I see it as a two hour peek into a psyche that fooled itself into thinking "the Joker" will somehow get away with it all and leave Arthur behind.
And the loneliness. If the first film was an allegory on the world in 2019, this is too, just how we experience it internally and the godawful loneliness so many people are experiencing.
Your opening paragraph is truly beautifully written. And I think I will agree with your overall review BUT, please god, Steven Spielberg West Side Story is one of the worst conceived remakes ever! An original that was genius (for its sparse sets, choreography and saturated color) absolutely ruined by a digitally-driven gilded Lilly that makes a Faberge Egg look minimalist. Absolutely awful.
For me, Heath Ledger defined the Joker. I liked Joaguin in the first and though doubtful on every level I actually look forward to Foile a Deux. I have often enjoyed ill conceived projects if they are ill conceived on an epic level. The trailers, and your review, make this one look like an epic misconception.
"It’s unfair to ask Phoenix to sing alongside Lady Gaga, who has real pipes. But then, it’s also unfair to ask her to perform alongside Phoenix, who is one of the best actors of his generation. The whole thing is almost comically mismatched."
The 1967 movie Camelot had a similar issue: Richard Harris couldn't sing, and Robert Goulet couldn't act in the same league as Richard Harris. About fifteen years ago I saw a lovely PBS special about Broadway history, which interviewed both of them about how terrified they were to perform next to each other. And yet Camelot worked quite well. So I'm guessing it's the other problems with Folie à Deux that make this movie really terrible.
You’re right. It was Burton who they interviewed about the Broadway production, not Harris about the movie. Easy for me to confuse, as I consider Harris’s recording of “MacArthur Park” to be a spectacularly weak singing performance.
I am very surprised that I was confused about Goulet being in the movie, as I have watched that movie multiple times. I also forgot that Andrew’s wasn’t in the movie. But you are right and I was wrong. I guess I’ve just listened to the Broadway soundtrack so many times that it obliterated the movie in my mind.
I agree that Joaquin Phoenix sang well in Walk the Line. That was a great movie.
I think you may have "misremembered" on Broadway it was Richard Burton and Robert Goulet (along with Julie Andrews) and the movie was Richard Harris and Franco Nero (along with Vanessa Redgrave). The Broadway show was a hit--- the movie made money. Burton won a Tony Award and the show made Goulet, who they say was not as bad an actor as he thought, a star and gave him his signature song "If Ever I Could Leave You."
Hollywood can fix anyone's singing. Apparently they did not want to fix Phoenix's singing and that makes sense given his character.--- but bad acting is hard to hide. Gaga is a good enough actor--- and Phoenix did all his own singing in the bio-pic "Walk the Line."
And I am keen on seeing this.
I liked the first "Joker" he made and this one looks interesting and looks to be a lot of fun.
I actually saw Goulet as King Arthur in a revival of Camelot back in the nineties. I agree that he was a fine actor (though not as good as Burton or Harris).
"That the mob wearing Joker masks at the end of the film could code as left-wing Antifa rioters or red-hat-wearing incels—or Hong Kong freedom fighters or anti-Hezbollah protesters in Lebanon—was a feature, not a bug. It felt like everyone was mad, and that everyone was going a little mad."
I’m playing with formats; seems most people prefer getting the reviews this way. Still lots of business talk on the pods. And maybe I’ll mix in some business of Hollywood chatter here with the reviews.
While I found it extremely depressing, I think the focus on if it was "good" or not needs to come from what the film showed us, not what it didn't. The mismatch between Gaga & Phonenix, the darkness/ grey, and the fractured scenes that do not end in a climax, seem to indicate this is how Arthur's brain was experiencing life.
As a fractured person, his fantasies never complete themselves, everything is grandiose (ex: having an incredibly talented singer in his corner singing just to him), because that is how he experiences life from inside his head.
This is much more about how the Joker experiences the world than how the world experiences the Joker.
I see it as a two hour peek into a psyche that fooled itself into thinking "the Joker" will somehow get away with it all and leave Arthur behind.
And the loneliness. If the first film was an allegory on the world in 2019, this is too, just how we experience it internally and the godawful loneliness so many people are experiencing.
Logan Lucky was brilliant. Soderberg can really make a heist movie.
5z
Great review, Sonny. I saw this yesterday and wish I’d read your review first. “…does not work” captures it perfectly.
Your opening paragraph is truly beautifully written. And I think I will agree with your overall review BUT, please god, Steven Spielberg West Side Story is one of the worst conceived remakes ever! An original that was genius (for its sparse sets, choreography and saturated color) absolutely ruined by a digitally-driven gilded Lilly that makes a Faberge Egg look minimalist. Absolutely awful.
For me, Heath Ledger defined the Joker. I liked Joaguin in the first and though doubtful on every level I actually look forward to Foile a Deux. I have often enjoyed ill conceived projects if they are ill conceived on an epic level. The trailers, and your review, make this one look like an epic misconception.
"It’s unfair to ask Phoenix to sing alongside Lady Gaga, who has real pipes. But then, it’s also unfair to ask her to perform alongside Phoenix, who is one of the best actors of his generation. The whole thing is almost comically mismatched."
The 1967 movie Camelot had a similar issue: Richard Harris couldn't sing, and Robert Goulet couldn't act in the same league as Richard Harris. About fifteen years ago I saw a lovely PBS special about Broadway history, which interviewed both of them about how terrified they were to perform next to each other. And yet Camelot worked quite well. So I'm guessing it's the other problems with Folie à Deux that make this movie really terrible.
You’re right. It was Burton who they interviewed about the Broadway production, not Harris about the movie. Easy for me to confuse, as I consider Harris’s recording of “MacArthur Park” to be a spectacularly weak singing performance.
I am very surprised that I was confused about Goulet being in the movie, as I have watched that movie multiple times. I also forgot that Andrew’s wasn’t in the movie. But you are right and I was wrong. I guess I’ve just listened to the Broadway soundtrack so many times that it obliterated the movie in my mind.
I agree that Joaquin Phoenix sang well in Walk the Line. That was a great movie.
I think you may have "misremembered" on Broadway it was Richard Burton and Robert Goulet (along with Julie Andrews) and the movie was Richard Harris and Franco Nero (along with Vanessa Redgrave). The Broadway show was a hit--- the movie made money. Burton won a Tony Award and the show made Goulet, who they say was not as bad an actor as he thought, a star and gave him his signature song "If Ever I Could Leave You."
Hollywood can fix anyone's singing. Apparently they did not want to fix Phoenix's singing and that makes sense given his character.--- but bad acting is hard to hide. Gaga is a good enough actor--- and Phoenix did all his own singing in the bio-pic "Walk the Line."
And I am keen on seeing this.
I liked the first "Joker" he made and this one looks interesting and looks to be a lot of fun.
I actually saw Goulet as King Arthur in a revival of Camelot back in the nineties. I agree that he was a fine actor (though not as good as Burton or Harris).
Oh man! I was so looking forward to this film having been a fan of the first. But I will still pay to see it!
"That the mob wearing Joker masks at the end of the film could code as left-wing Antifa rioters or red-hat-wearing incels—or Hong Kong freedom fighters or anti-Hezbollah protesters in Lebanon—was a feature, not a bug. It felt like everyone was mad, and that everyone was going a little mad."
See "V for Vendetta"...
The biggest-budget 9/11 Truth movie ever made!
The first film not just a Scorcese pastiche, it is a Taxi Driver knock-off. Which is not to say it doesn't have some unique flavours.
But $1b always seemed incongruous. The fucktonne of cash theory tracks.
there's a lot of THE KING OF COMEDY in there too
Very much so Sonny.
Incidentally, I think TKOC is Scorsese's most underrated film
I’m playing with formats; seems most people prefer getting the reviews this way. Still lots of business talk on the pods. And maybe I’ll mix in some business of Hollywood chatter here with the reviews.
I love the reviews and find them helpful.