Bill, once again you show an inability to understand what Dem’s have always stood for, doing what is best for the average American. The right-wing, that still seem to have you held captive, has only ever wanted power for the privileged class, those most like you.
The mere title of this article "Liberals Shouldn't Give Up On ‘Law and Order’", is disingenuous and lacking backbone of honesty since such disposition should apply tp all Americans, and MAGA following.
Republicans should not be excused from deserved condemnation by WILLIAM KRISTOL AND ANDREW EGGER just because these two may be too cowardly to charge the bigots directly.
Foreign observers of American life, many with family and friends here and coming from all backgrounds including major media. politics and governments in their jurisdictions, posit a gross timidity and hesitance amoung those purpodedly challenging the Donald Trump mania and his sycophants in Congress, religious institutions and voters themselves.
Since Americans love to talk about "fighting vigorously for Freedoms and Democracy", it is critical for President Biden, Democratic party and supposedly disaffected "normal" Republicans to get real and literally stand and engage the crazies of lies, hate and division that will most certainly seek to destroy any and all non-Trumpism in this country.
Bill Kristol's piece on the border should have been more explicit that the Tajiks with suspected ISIS ties crossed the border at ports of entry -- not unlawfully -- and we're monitored by federal agents. Saying they "crossed through the southern border" creates the impression they crossed illegally, between ports of entry. The NBC story cited better presents the facts.
Worse yet, he ties the incident to a call for Democrats to be more for "law and order." In this case, law and order worked.
Hurling bombs, and no specifics? Please point out the “untrue” parts? As for his writing, your critique sounds like maybe it was written by someone who doesn’t have any particular expertise in journalism. Oh wait…
Fox News, as the media outlet with the largest share of cable tv audience, must be considered "mainstream" yet it has no compunction to be fair and balanced. Fox will do and say whatever it wants to endorse Orange and diminish Joe. The other "mainstream" outlets, i.e. CNN, MSNBC, NYT, etc, for some reasons feel they must be above reproach and treat both Orange and Joe equally, good or bad. They will maintain this position right up until Orange pulls their plug should he
win. I don't want them to lie but they are smart enough to know how to modify things. Hell, they're news people for crissakes.
There is no way that MSNBC treats Trump the same as Biden (except for maybe Katy Tur, whom everyone complains about but I never watch); not even close. Please watch their shows, especially from 4pm to midnight, before dumping on them.
both sides here seem to be misleading, fox news out and out lies for its propandanga, justifying any lie for the sake of "defeating the libs" and to please their donors.....MSBNC doesnt lie , but does tailor its narrative to one side, whilst CNN , seems to think both sides are the same , and gives both sides a narrative take , which just infurates everybody who thinks the right is just bonkers, and then panels just deteriate into shouting matches, which they think suits their ratings....most people i know, get all their data, from youtube / podcasts or other media , cable news [and newspapers ] are just mainly for the elderly these days :(
My reaction to the following Kristol comment was met by a mixture of amusement, befuddlement and no little dismay: "Liberals have to be for law and order.... You cannot be a majority party in the country if you’re perceived as indifferent to or unfriendly to law and order." First, liberals are already supportive of law and order. Second, "liberals" and "Democratic Party" are two separate groups, although the former are folded largely within the latter. Third, the Democratic Party is composed chiefly of moderates, some conservatives too. Fourth, liberals and other Democrats are scarcely represented by "ugly mobs on city streets," Tajikistan and other foreign terrorists, and unhinged, antisemitic, pro-Palestinian demonstrators waving Hamas and Hezbollah flags. All writers commit over-generalizations. I myself was appropriately called out on one just last week. Yet this business of liberals-cum-all-Democrats and their deficient law-and-order attitude transcended mere generalization and soared full-steam to otherworldliness.
MAGA, again, searches for a crime where no crime exists. Unfortunately for MAGA, it is not a crime for citizens to elect into office someone who ran against their favorite, The False Prophet.
Juries heard and analyzed evidence of crimes presented to them by prosecutors and adjudged the defendants guilty. Both The False Prophet in NY and Hunter Biden before the federal court in DE.
On a personal level, todays headline was disappointing and disheartening. If Bill and the rest of the Bulwark team can listen, I'll explain why.
I am a liberal, though more center left than hard left.
I live in Sausalito, literally just outside of San Francisco. Sausalito is as blue as it gets. It is also a small town where literally everyone knows the City Council. As a community, we are hiring a new police officer and a new parking control officer. We just bought a new police truck. People are happy about that and it is non-controversial. I donated to the Novato Police K9 Foundation (Marin County needs a new K9 officer) and have the hat to prove it. I volunteer for Search and Rescue. I own guns. My wife is a longtime emergency preparedness professional. We volunteer to teach people how to respond to major disasters.
I grew up in San Francisco. I'm writing this from downtown San Francisco. I am personally pro-law and order. My friends, many of whom still live in San Francisco, are married and have their 2.5 children. They pay their taxes and help others. This is true of all of them, even the gay ones! My mother, who recently passed, was a public defender in San Francisco before working for a local judge.
The San Francisco mayor has literally cleaned things up. The city looks better than it has in years. At a state level, Newsom sent the CHP into Fresno and Oakland for what might be called an occupation. At a national level, our longtime Senator, Feinstein, never saw a police officer she didn't like. The VP, Kamala Harris, was a longtime local District Attorney. Obama was as tough as anyone had been to that point on illegal immigration.
When I read pieces like this, I want to tell conservatives as a whole to go F--- themselves. What more do they want? When I hear this in real life, I actually do tell people to go F--- themselves. You want more family values? See my liberal friends with 2.5 children. Go F-- yourself. You want more law and order? Exactly how many more CHP officers should Newsom send into Oakland? You conservative and want to help? Stop putting your druggies on a bus to San Francisco. Go F--- yourself.
This criticism makes me LESS likely to support law and order. What is the point of me taking time to volunteer, vote to raise my own taxes, etc, all so that a bunch of jackwads from somewhere else can lecture me on law and order?
I can see that Bill Kristol is trying to say, but he is missing all the things that actual, real live liberals are actually doing about this.
My anger aside- Bill, you have an open invite to visit me in Sausalito. We can wander around and look at what is going on. You could come to a city council meeting. It might blow your mind.
"The San Francisco mayor has literally cleaned things up. The city looks better than it has in years." I live on Powell Street and completely disagree. And when I read paragraph six I also question your receptiveness to differing points of view. To claim center-left and act completely unaware of arguments that contemporary policing had become too militarized while historical policing owed its genesis to the pursuit of runaway slaves -- not to mention a century of labor claiming police as the publicly paid protectors of the owner class. Sorry, but it really has been hard for the left to waive flags, especially those with the blue stripe in them. Coming to Jesus now seems a broader shift in politics than position.
It's fine to disagree about the effectiveness of the cleanup. I take the other view. I rode my motorcycle through the city (TL) today on my way downtown and things are better than they were. For a historical context, I was born in SF and remember when much of the Mission was not safe, so my context is different than others.
I'm totally aware of the context of policing. You can be righteously angry about police misconduct and still pro-law and order. Over militarization is obvious. Cannabis was renamed marijuana because that is what Mexicans called it. It's not hard to see that. We can go pull out our copies of **A People's History of the United States** if that makes you feel better.
Further, it's not like I'm lacking in personal experience with the cops. My sister got held in the back of a DEA wagon and questioned illegally for six hours before they kicked her out and announced "This girl doesn't know anything!" My college roommate, who clerked for Scalia(!), was held at gunpoint for two hours. He couldn't get the tapes when he asked for them. A game warden tried to entrap me into a poaching violation when I was ten. I can go on. None of that means that I want sideshows in the streets.
I have a healthy distrust for individual cops, while still having a healthy respect for the institutions of law and order.
The point of paragraph 6 is to highlight the emotional impact on me. Sure, I'm open to different points of view, but after a lifetime of abuse directed in my general direction, it's hard to not get indignant.. We hear all the time about how we, as lefties, need to understand where people are coming from. I'm presenting the other side.
These two court cases being so close together, does allow for the side-by-side reactions that CNN did, to not be tainted by time, or people having a valid reason for changing their opinion.
You can’t get a more clear example of, “justice for me and mine, but not for thee and thine” than what Fox News just portrayed. Just hang a sign that says, “we are a hyper-partisan extension of the GOP” on the screen, each time you tune into their channel. That’s what their viewers want. They don’t want news. They want their narrative affirmed. Everyone is out to get them. They are the victims, in perpetuity.
"Law and Order" is the wrong tack. It should be "Rule of Law." Rule of Law says we don't tolerate violent mobs. It says that people shouldn't be able to buy justice, and that the amount of justice you get shouldn't be based on what you can afford. And most important, Rule of Law says police and judges and even the President himself are answerable for their actions. You can't win by trying to take the other side's terms. You win by making him address you on your terms.
That's true. Putting "and order" into the phrase gives it more of a Nixonian vibe. "Rule of law" is more precise and evokes something deeper and more promising than "forcing people to behave the way we want them to."
Personally I'm for law all of the time and order some of the time.
On thing that has struck me about Trump and the MAGA movement is how utterly hostile they are to America. They are constantly expressing contempt for America. Their contempt for American values has grown exponentially over the last several years. They don't even believe in democracy anymore. If Democrats were smart they would turn that into a political issue. Tell Trumpers if they don't love America, they should leave.
This smells much like the moldy tripe my moderate GOP friends purvey when they try to explain to me why they can't vote for Biden. Don't drink the water...even at Bulwark HQ!?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0cOUbsSRJw&list=LL&index=10 - Tories drop to third place as Farage overtakes Sunak in latest poll [uk politics]
Each day comes a new reason why I should not renew my subscription.
What I am not going to pay for is Bill Kristol claiming that liberals aren't for law and order. Nothing could be further from the truth
Bill, once again you show an inability to understand what Dem’s have always stood for, doing what is best for the average American. The right-wing, that still seem to have you held captive, has only ever wanted power for the privileged class, those most like you.
Liberals should not give up on Justice. That includes law and order and sometimes mercy.
The mere title of this article "Liberals Shouldn't Give Up On ‘Law and Order’", is disingenuous and lacking backbone of honesty since such disposition should apply tp all Americans, and MAGA following.
Republicans should not be excused from deserved condemnation by WILLIAM KRISTOL AND ANDREW EGGER just because these two may be too cowardly to charge the bigots directly.
Foreign observers of American life, many with family and friends here and coming from all backgrounds including major media. politics and governments in their jurisdictions, posit a gross timidity and hesitance amoung those purpodedly challenging the Donald Trump mania and his sycophants in Congress, religious institutions and voters themselves.
Since Americans love to talk about "fighting vigorously for Freedoms and Democracy", it is critical for President Biden, Democratic party and supposedly disaffected "normal" Republicans to get real and literally stand and engage the crazies of lies, hate and division that will most certainly seek to destroy any and all non-Trumpism in this country.
Bill Kristol's piece on the border should have been more explicit that the Tajiks with suspected ISIS ties crossed the border at ports of entry -- not unlawfully -- and we're monitored by federal agents. Saying they "crossed through the southern border" creates the impression they crossed illegally, between ports of entry. The NBC story cited better presents the facts.
Worse yet, he ties the incident to a call for Democrats to be more for "law and order." In this case, law and order worked.
You have got to be kidding me with this piece by Kristol.
It is unresearched, boring, badly written and untrue.
Who the heck is vetting Kristol? Just because he doesn't like TFG does not mean he needs a home here.
👏👏👏👏. He is irrelevant, stuck in the 80’s
Hurling bombs, and no specifics? Please point out the “untrue” parts? As for his writing, your critique sounds like maybe it was written by someone who doesn’t have any particular expertise in journalism. Oh wait…
Untrue parts? Compare Bill's innuendo to the NBC report. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/8-suspected-terrorists-possible-isis-ties-arrested-new-york-l-philadel-rcna156635 Bill took superficially true statements and framed them to give erroneous impressions about how these men entered and the efficacy of law enforcement.
Here goes...
Fox News, as the media outlet with the largest share of cable tv audience, must be considered "mainstream" yet it has no compunction to be fair and balanced. Fox will do and say whatever it wants to endorse Orange and diminish Joe. The other "mainstream" outlets, i.e. CNN, MSNBC, NYT, etc, for some reasons feel they must be above reproach and treat both Orange and Joe equally, good or bad. They will maintain this position right up until Orange pulls their plug should he
win. I don't want them to lie but they are smart enough to know how to modify things. Hell, they're news people for crissakes.
There is no way that MSNBC treats Trump the same as Biden (except for maybe Katy Tur, whom everyone complains about but I never watch); not even close. Please watch their shows, especially from 4pm to midnight, before dumping on them.
both sides here seem to be misleading, fox news out and out lies for its propandanga, justifying any lie for the sake of "defeating the libs" and to please their donors.....MSBNC doesnt lie , but does tailor its narrative to one side, whilst CNN , seems to think both sides are the same , and gives both sides a narrative take , which just infurates everybody who thinks the right is just bonkers, and then panels just deteriate into shouting matches, which they think suits their ratings....most people i know, get all their data, from youtube / podcasts or other media , cable news [and newspapers ] are just mainly for the elderly these days :(
Define 'elderly'
My reaction to the following Kristol comment was met by a mixture of amusement, befuddlement and no little dismay: "Liberals have to be for law and order.... You cannot be a majority party in the country if you’re perceived as indifferent to or unfriendly to law and order." First, liberals are already supportive of law and order. Second, "liberals" and "Democratic Party" are two separate groups, although the former are folded largely within the latter. Third, the Democratic Party is composed chiefly of moderates, some conservatives too. Fourth, liberals and other Democrats are scarcely represented by "ugly mobs on city streets," Tajikistan and other foreign terrorists, and unhinged, antisemitic, pro-Palestinian demonstrators waving Hamas and Hezbollah flags. All writers commit over-generalizations. I myself was appropriately called out on one just last week. Yet this business of liberals-cum-all-Democrats and their deficient law-and-order attitude transcended mere generalization and soared full-steam to otherworldliness.
MAGA, again, searches for a crime where no crime exists. Unfortunately for MAGA, it is not a crime for citizens to elect into office someone who ran against their favorite, The False Prophet.
Juries heard and analyzed evidence of crimes presented to them by prosecutors and adjudged the defendants guilty. Both The False Prophet in NY and Hunter Biden before the federal court in DE.
Give it a break, MAGA, before it breaks you.
On a personal level, todays headline was disappointing and disheartening. If Bill and the rest of the Bulwark team can listen, I'll explain why.
I am a liberal, though more center left than hard left.
I live in Sausalito, literally just outside of San Francisco. Sausalito is as blue as it gets. It is also a small town where literally everyone knows the City Council. As a community, we are hiring a new police officer and a new parking control officer. We just bought a new police truck. People are happy about that and it is non-controversial. I donated to the Novato Police K9 Foundation (Marin County needs a new K9 officer) and have the hat to prove it. I volunteer for Search and Rescue. I own guns. My wife is a longtime emergency preparedness professional. We volunteer to teach people how to respond to major disasters.
I grew up in San Francisco. I'm writing this from downtown San Francisco. I am personally pro-law and order. My friends, many of whom still live in San Francisco, are married and have their 2.5 children. They pay their taxes and help others. This is true of all of them, even the gay ones! My mother, who recently passed, was a public defender in San Francisco before working for a local judge.
The San Francisco mayor has literally cleaned things up. The city looks better than it has in years. At a state level, Newsom sent the CHP into Fresno and Oakland for what might be called an occupation. At a national level, our longtime Senator, Feinstein, never saw a police officer she didn't like. The VP, Kamala Harris, was a longtime local District Attorney. Obama was as tough as anyone had been to that point on illegal immigration.
When I read pieces like this, I want to tell conservatives as a whole to go F--- themselves. What more do they want? When I hear this in real life, I actually do tell people to go F--- themselves. You want more family values? See my liberal friends with 2.5 children. Go F-- yourself. You want more law and order? Exactly how many more CHP officers should Newsom send into Oakland? You conservative and want to help? Stop putting your druggies on a bus to San Francisco. Go F--- yourself.
This criticism makes me LESS likely to support law and order. What is the point of me taking time to volunteer, vote to raise my own taxes, etc, all so that a bunch of jackwads from somewhere else can lecture me on law and order?
I can see that Bill Kristol is trying to say, but he is missing all the things that actual, real live liberals are actually doing about this.
My anger aside- Bill, you have an open invite to visit me in Sausalito. We can wander around and look at what is going on. You could come to a city council meeting. It might blow your mind.
"The San Francisco mayor has literally cleaned things up. The city looks better than it has in years." I live on Powell Street and completely disagree. And when I read paragraph six I also question your receptiveness to differing points of view. To claim center-left and act completely unaware of arguments that contemporary policing had become too militarized while historical policing owed its genesis to the pursuit of runaway slaves -- not to mention a century of labor claiming police as the publicly paid protectors of the owner class. Sorry, but it really has been hard for the left to waive flags, especially those with the blue stripe in them. Coming to Jesus now seems a broader shift in politics than position.
It's fine to disagree about the effectiveness of the cleanup. I take the other view. I rode my motorcycle through the city (TL) today on my way downtown and things are better than they were. For a historical context, I was born in SF and remember when much of the Mission was not safe, so my context is different than others.
I'm totally aware of the context of policing. You can be righteously angry about police misconduct and still pro-law and order. Over militarization is obvious. Cannabis was renamed marijuana because that is what Mexicans called it. It's not hard to see that. We can go pull out our copies of **A People's History of the United States** if that makes you feel better.
Further, it's not like I'm lacking in personal experience with the cops. My sister got held in the back of a DEA wagon and questioned illegally for six hours before they kicked her out and announced "This girl doesn't know anything!" My college roommate, who clerked for Scalia(!), was held at gunpoint for two hours. He couldn't get the tapes when he asked for them. A game warden tried to entrap me into a poaching violation when I was ten. I can go on. None of that means that I want sideshows in the streets.
I have a healthy distrust for individual cops, while still having a healthy respect for the institutions of law and order.
The point of paragraph 6 is to highlight the emotional impact on me. Sure, I'm open to different points of view, but after a lifetime of abuse directed in my general direction, it's hard to not get indignant.. We hear all the time about how we, as lefties, need to understand where people are coming from. I'm presenting the other side.
Jeannine Pirro can’t help herself. Botox and collagen in those quantities has damaging side effects. We’re pulling for an eventual recovery, Jeannine…
These two court cases being so close together, does allow for the side-by-side reactions that CNN did, to not be tainted by time, or people having a valid reason for changing their opinion.
You can’t get a more clear example of, “justice for me and mine, but not for thee and thine” than what Fox News just portrayed. Just hang a sign that says, “we are a hyper-partisan extension of the GOP” on the screen, each time you tune into their channel. That’s what their viewers want. They don’t want news. They want their narrative affirmed. Everyone is out to get them. They are the victims, in perpetuity.
"Law and Order" is the wrong tack. It should be "Rule of Law." Rule of Law says we don't tolerate violent mobs. It says that people shouldn't be able to buy justice, and that the amount of justice you get shouldn't be based on what you can afford. And most important, Rule of Law says police and judges and even the President himself are answerable for their actions. You can't win by trying to take the other side's terms. You win by making him address you on your terms.
That's true. Putting "and order" into the phrase gives it more of a Nixonian vibe. "Rule of law" is more precise and evokes something deeper and more promising than "forcing people to behave the way we want them to."
Personally I'm for law all of the time and order some of the time.
On thing that has struck me about Trump and the MAGA movement is how utterly hostile they are to America. They are constantly expressing contempt for America. Their contempt for American values has grown exponentially over the last several years. They don't even believe in democracy anymore. If Democrats were smart they would turn that into a political issue. Tell Trumpers if they don't love America, they should leave.
This smells much like the moldy tripe my moderate GOP friends purvey when they try to explain to me why they can't vote for Biden. Don't drink the water...even at Bulwark HQ!?