We have a guy (and a chunk of one of the two major parties) who wants to bail out/forgive student debt.
We have another guy (and a big chunk of the other major party) who is absolutely fine with what (these days) appears to be a continually recurring nightmare of death and attacks using what are (to them) scared items (guns).
We have a guy and a party that seems to be in favor of democracy.
We have another guy and a party that seems to believe that authoritarianism is the way.
This is apparently a REALLY tough call for some people. It's amazing.
Love your work, always, but, on student loans, hate to say it, but, you're out of touch. I went to school the past 5 years (and I am 60) with (much younger) community college nursing students, and they were almost to a person, working 1 or 2 jobs single moms (or dads), with kids to support, working 24-7 - from millenials starved out the housing market to up and coming poor kids trying to get into the middle class working like crazy, trying to cope with skyrocketing apartment prices, food prices. And they are doing nurse tech jobs which are EXHAUSTING - and working their butts off to become nurses - another EXHAUSTING job. Many of my fellow students were working full time as nurse techs, doing their college work on the side, barely able to pay rent and take care of their kids, while paying tuition. IMHO, from what I have seen, y'all are a tad insensitive to this massive demographic of folks who (unlike me, in the 1960s-1980s received massive support for college education - remember the GI bill? and tons of federal aid? And reasonable prices for college tuition?) have been hung out to dry by society, the economy, Reagan, the neo liberals and everyone and everything else that's going on, and could use a break, right now, because it is very very hard to be a young person in America, right now - just saying.
I wonder what happens to the credit scores for college debt holders when the gov pays a good chunk of it off for them? They get a score bump on top of Uncle Sam's bailout?
Yes, you are cranky today. A lot of what's going on politically is bullshit. I'm absolutely convinced that it's he who has the biggest check, or she, will win. Getting elected is about finance and marketing which Fatty Orangeface understands. The other secret is to speak the audience's language and since most voters are functionally illiterate all it takes is noise and money.
If you don't want debt alleviation for fiscal or practical reasons, that's an argument to be had. (I disagree, but w/e.)
Basing it on public opinion, though, is not a great sell because the goldfish attention span of the public means the whole thing will be lost and gone within a week of happening. (Except for the people who got their debt cut.)
Basing pretty much anything at all on what the GOP is going to say about it? Screw them. This is the crew that turned pandemic mitigation measures into "Muh freedom to spread infection". This is the crew that took no evidence of any sort of substantial fraud (and the few examples we have of any fraud typically being Republicans trying to 'outcheat the cheaters' as it were) into a Trump was robbed narrative.
In terms of what the GOP will say, it doesn't matter. The ACA, a program that facilitated people getting private insurance, was deemed Marxism.
Biden said that if we pulled together and got vaccinated, we could enjoy the 4th of July in 2021. Republicans turned this into "BIDEN IS TELLING US WHEN WE CAN GATHER WITH OUR FAMILIES TO CELEBRATE OUR FREEDOM!"
There is no message that the MAGA noise machine won't twist, or they'll just invent some peach tree dishes to zap the bloodmouthed carnists for eating meat storyline.
I agree that forgiving student loan debt would be a big mistake for Biden, and I say that as someone who didn't finish paying mine off til I was in my 40s. However, I keep hearing Charlie and others refer to "rich kids with student loans." Rich kids don't get student loans; they don't need them. Kids with student loans are by and large middle class and working class students (my parents were a teacher and a Legal Aid paralegal).
Biden is forgiving student loans for the individuals who were caught up in the predatory and deceptive practices of the now defunct Corinthian College. The government forced them out of business 6-7 years ago. Corinthian College was nothing more than a diploma mill, clown college. Hence if you a had a pulse and a Pell grant you were admitted. They took advantage of minority students who didn't have the basic education, comprehension or support to understand what they were signing and were left with worthless degrees you could wipe your ass with, if they even graduated at all.
I sometimes wonder if progressives would welcome a Republican electoral blowout that purged vulnerable centrists from the Democrats and left progressives with a stronger hand internally. The progressive caucus now amounts to about half of Congressional Democrats, so perhaps they find it tempting to prioritize expanding that percentage over stopping Trumpism. The historical precedents for this kind of thinking are not encouraging.
Us old codgers who see what we are looking at have seen this all before... borrowing for a war... Nixon and Arthur Burns goosing the money supply and the inflation that followed... deregulating the savings and loan industry... the Reagan tax bill creating the limited partnership sucker trap... the tech bubble of the 90's... the housing debacle... zirps... crypto... pet rocks... all part of making America great again... and again and again and again
I'll add--my main argument is that its just stupid policy. Anyone who advocates for it seems to think its smart politically (which I seriously have doubts about).
So if its dumb as policy, and dumb as politics, why do it?
Charlie, you can have literally anyone you want on your podcast; why do you never invite any of the "woke leftists" you're worried are running the Biden presidency?
While I agree with the larger point about how 'niche' student loan forgiveness is generally, some specificity would be useful here, at least about the specific college loan forgiveness Biden currently enacted. It's for those students who enrolled in a particular university that engaged in shady practices. From CNN "The Department of Education has found that Corinthian Colleges misled prospective students about the ability to transfer credits and falsified its job placement rate. In 2013, Vice President Kamala Harris -- who was California's attorney general at the time -- sued Corinthian Colleges, alleging the school was engaging in deceptive and false advertising and recruitment...ultimately resulted in Corinthian selling most of its campuses in 2014 and closing the remaining ones in 2015"
So it was more like restitution, rather than giving a break to students for loans taken out going to NYU. Of course, as James Carville would say, if you're explaining, you're losing.
Sure seems a bit almost like a plot to suck gulls into a private scam system. And pass laws saying that debt was so special it can't be eliminated in bankruptcy court. And do some corporate socialism to guarantee loans to the fraudsters. Almost as if all those private for profit degree mills might not have sprung up if the owners actually might have had to carry the cost of loaning money to people who couldn't pay it off.
It's potential $10k per borrower. That means the overall cost is $230 BILLION. That's for every taxpayer to pay, to cover the roughly 12% of people who chose to go to college that still have outstanding loans. It also ends up raising tuition rates because the prospect of a future loan forgiveness is more likely, especially since MORE kids will then take out loans they can't pay for a higher tuition, and at current, much higher interest rates.
When Republicans look at progressives and say "Please keep spouting ridiculous s**t that helps re-elect us," this is the kind of stuff they are talking about.
We have a guy (and a chunk of one of the two major parties) who wants to bail out/forgive student debt.
We have another guy (and a big chunk of the other major party) who is absolutely fine with what (these days) appears to be a continually recurring nightmare of death and attacks using what are (to them) scared items (guns).
We have a guy and a party that seems to be in favor of democracy.
We have another guy and a party that seems to believe that authoritarianism is the way.
This is apparently a REALLY tough call for some people. It's amazing.
Love your work, always, but, on student loans, hate to say it, but, you're out of touch. I went to school the past 5 years (and I am 60) with (much younger) community college nursing students, and they were almost to a person, working 1 or 2 jobs single moms (or dads), with kids to support, working 24-7 - from millenials starved out the housing market to up and coming poor kids trying to get into the middle class working like crazy, trying to cope with skyrocketing apartment prices, food prices. And they are doing nurse tech jobs which are EXHAUSTING - and working their butts off to become nurses - another EXHAUSTING job. Many of my fellow students were working full time as nurse techs, doing their college work on the side, barely able to pay rent and take care of their kids, while paying tuition. IMHO, from what I have seen, y'all are a tad insensitive to this massive demographic of folks who (unlike me, in the 1960s-1980s received massive support for college education - remember the GI bill? and tons of federal aid? And reasonable prices for college tuition?) have been hung out to dry by society, the economy, Reagan, the neo liberals and everyone and everything else that's going on, and could use a break, right now, because it is very very hard to be a young person in America, right now - just saying.
I wonder what happens to the credit scores for college debt holders when the gov pays a good chunk of it off for them? They get a score bump on top of Uncle Sam's bailout?
Yes, you are cranky today. A lot of what's going on politically is bullshit. I'm absolutely convinced that it's he who has the biggest check, or she, will win. Getting elected is about finance and marketing which Fatty Orangeface understands. The other secret is to speak the audience's language and since most voters are functionally illiterate all it takes is noise and money.
If you don't want debt alleviation for fiscal or practical reasons, that's an argument to be had. (I disagree, but w/e.)
Basing it on public opinion, though, is not a great sell because the goldfish attention span of the public means the whole thing will be lost and gone within a week of happening. (Except for the people who got their debt cut.)
Basing pretty much anything at all on what the GOP is going to say about it? Screw them. This is the crew that turned pandemic mitigation measures into "Muh freedom to spread infection". This is the crew that took no evidence of any sort of substantial fraud (and the few examples we have of any fraud typically being Republicans trying to 'outcheat the cheaters' as it were) into a Trump was robbed narrative.
In terms of what the GOP will say, it doesn't matter. The ACA, a program that facilitated people getting private insurance, was deemed Marxism.
Biden said that if we pulled together and got vaccinated, we could enjoy the 4th of July in 2021. Republicans turned this into "BIDEN IS TELLING US WHEN WE CAN GATHER WITH OUR FAMILIES TO CELEBRATE OUR FREEDOM!"
There is no message that the MAGA noise machine won't twist, or they'll just invent some peach tree dishes to zap the bloodmouthed carnists for eating meat storyline.
I agree that forgiving student loan debt would be a big mistake for Biden, and I say that as someone who didn't finish paying mine off til I was in my 40s. However, I keep hearing Charlie and others refer to "rich kids with student loans." Rich kids don't get student loans; they don't need them. Kids with student loans are by and large middle class and working class students (my parents were a teacher and a Legal Aid paralegal).
$230 billion is what it would cost, and that's including the (arbitrary) cutoffs for persons making over $125k, according to the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget. https://www.crfb.org/blogs/rumored-student-loan-cancellation-would-cost-230-billion
Biden is forgiving student loans for the individuals who were caught up in the predatory and deceptive practices of the now defunct Corinthian College. The government forced them out of business 6-7 years ago. Corinthian College was nothing more than a diploma mill, clown college. Hence if you a had a pulse and a Pell grant you were admitted. They took advantage of minority students who didn't have the basic education, comprehension or support to understand what they were signing and were left with worthless degrees you could wipe your ass with, if they even graduated at all.
I sometimes wonder if progressives would welcome a Republican electoral blowout that purged vulnerable centrists from the Democrats and left progressives with a stronger hand internally. The progressive caucus now amounts to about half of Congressional Democrats, so perhaps they find it tempting to prioritize expanding that percentage over stopping Trumpism. The historical precedents for this kind of thinking are not encouraging.
Us old codgers who see what we are looking at have seen this all before... borrowing for a war... Nixon and Arthur Burns goosing the money supply and the inflation that followed... deregulating the savings and loan industry... the Reagan tax bill creating the limited partnership sucker trap... the tech bubble of the 90's... the housing debacle... zirps... crypto... pet rocks... all part of making America great again... and again and again and again
I'll add--my main argument is that its just stupid policy. Anyone who advocates for it seems to think its smart politically (which I seriously have doubts about).
So if its dumb as policy, and dumb as politics, why do it?
Why do people keep saying this is a dumb and unpopular policy . . . when it isn't?
https://thehill.com/news/3266637-overwhelming-support-for-some-federal-student-loan-forgiveness-poll/
"The overwhelming majority of voters support some kind of student loan forgiveness, according to a new poll.
The poll, conducted by Morning Consult and Politico, showed that 64 percent of respondents supported some form of student loan forgiveness."
It won't matter in MN02.
Doesn't mean I want to pay $230 billion for something that won't have a political impact one way or the other either.
Is $230 billion what it will actually cost or is that just maximalist math?
From the 2 June online edition of NYT:
A Disturbing New Pattern in Mass Shootings: Young Assailants
By Glenn Thrush and Matt Richtel
Six of the nine deadliest mass shootings in the United States since 2018 were by people who were 21 or younger, a shift from earlier decades.
If there ever was a good reason not to support an age limit for a deadly firearm, there is no more.
Charlie, you can have literally anyone you want on your podcast; why do you never invite any of the "woke leftists" you're worried are running the Biden presidency?
Charlie just wants the D's to be like the R's used to be. Anything else is just woke.
Because they'd sound too reasonable in person. I'd pay cash money if he brought in Ta-Nehisi Coates or Ibram X Kendi.
While I agree with the larger point about how 'niche' student loan forgiveness is generally, some specificity would be useful here, at least about the specific college loan forgiveness Biden currently enacted. It's for those students who enrolled in a particular university that engaged in shady practices. From CNN "The Department of Education has found that Corinthian Colleges misled prospective students about the ability to transfer credits and falsified its job placement rate. In 2013, Vice President Kamala Harris -- who was California's attorney general at the time -- sued Corinthian Colleges, alleging the school was engaging in deceptive and false advertising and recruitment...ultimately resulted in Corinthian selling most of its campuses in 2014 and closing the remaining ones in 2015"
So it was more like restitution, rather than giving a break to students for loans taken out going to NYU. Of course, as James Carville would say, if you're explaining, you're losing.
Sure seems a bit almost like a plot to suck gulls into a private scam system. And pass laws saying that debt was so special it can't be eliminated in bankruptcy court. And do some corporate socialism to guarantee loans to the fraudsters. Almost as if all those private for profit degree mills might not have sprung up if the owners actually might have had to carry the cost of loaning money to people who couldn't pay it off.
"that debt was so special it can't be eliminated in bankruptcy court". Yep, the created a perverse incentive on the part of diploma mills.
"It's only $10,000."-- Idiot on this board.
It's potential $10k per borrower. That means the overall cost is $230 BILLION. That's for every taxpayer to pay, to cover the roughly 12% of people who chose to go to college that still have outstanding loans. It also ends up raising tuition rates because the prospect of a future loan forgiveness is more likely, especially since MORE kids will then take out loans they can't pay for a higher tuition, and at current, much higher interest rates.
When Republicans look at progressives and say "Please keep spouting ridiculous s**t that helps re-elect us," this is the kind of stuff they are talking about.
Aren't you the guy I've been discussing Apple Valley with upthread and the guy that said this won't matter in the MN 2nd District race come November?