Does anyone wonder if maybe Biden got dosed with something before the debate? He seemed to come around pretty fast after. I'm sure there are two or three hour drugs that render you incoherent and then wear off. Women are on guard about this type of thing all the time
How does one debate against a constant barrage of lies, each one more absurd than could be imagined in debate prep? How do you even prepare for that? And if you are rebutting each lie, how do you have time to highlight your own achievements?
I tried so hard to find the bulwark debate broadcast and could never find it! Wahhh! Clicking on the link didn’t get me there, but instead, as I recall, to some pre-broadcast analysis. What did I do wrong?!
Way too much ragging on CNN here. Everybody knew what the rules were, and any expectation that CNN was going to fact check or challenge Trump in any way after weeks of Trump broadcasting that CNN and Biden were allied against him is nonsensical, especially given CNN's Trump-related screw-ups of the past (remember the Town Hall fiasco?) and CNN's desperate attempt to remain relevant in an utterly Balkanized media environment. Biden will likely stay in all the way to the bitter end, despite last night, or (less likely) may call it a day. But it was on Biden and his team to take the fight to Trump last night, and for the most part he and they failed.
Bill Clinton and Barack Obama need to go to him and Jill and tell him to decline the nomination. If he was the only one who could beat Trump in 2020 (which I think he was), I think he's the only one who can lose to him in 2024 and if his whole reason for running is that he's the only Democrat that can beat Trump, he needs to go. Will an open convention be chaotic? Yes. But it will likely end with one of the governors on the bench having the nomination who will have a far better chance of beating Trump which is the ultimate goal.
I totally agree with Bill on there needs to be a discussion in the white house now. To those (like the person who will cancel their Bulwark subscription) you are whistling past grave yard here. I don't like to be disagreeable with fellow Bulwarkers,but so be it.
I didn't watch it Thursday night; I turned off my phone around 8:30. I read about it Friday morning, watched a couple hours of Morning Joe then watched the Bulwark post-debate show. The debate was a total shit show. Biden finally did the thing that we all feared he would eventually do. I'd been lulled into a warm fuzzy place by Biden stepping up on and exceeding low expectations on previous occasions. This time he brought to mind my grandmother who exhibited escalating frailty over the last few years of her life. This time, "they" won't need to edit out the paratrooper out of the video clip.
In closing, I'm stealing two JVL line (thanks JVL, and I'm looking forward to today's Secret Pod).
I just looked at the first few minutes here. Mona's dour face says it all. Keep her from the ledge JVL! If Bill is depressed he sure has a good poker face to hide it!
Question: The person in the chat who said they were discontinuing their Bulwark subscription-did they say the basis on which they made the decision right after the debate ended?
This was a terrific show. It was a pleasure and an honor to suffer through last night's debate with the Bulwark team and with likeminded people all over the world. Thanks to JVL, Egger, Mona, Bill and AB, and, as always, to Jim Swift and all the people off-camera and off-mike who make it possible.
I am thinking that maybe the people around Biden aren’t willing to say ‘step aside’ in the same way that Trump’s people prop him up. They need to love America more than their guy - that’s how we got here. Where is their person to say the truth? Let’s hope they have one.
I purposely watched the debate last night as a voter, not as a pundit assessing the race. I thought Joe looked and sounded old but he still had some good answers. Sometimes it was very cringy and sometimes it was just fine. He reminded me of a first time debater that was over prepared and had tons of facts in his head and in the 2 mins he had could not determine which facts to use…or whether to rebut the ridiculous lies from Trump. Trump was disgusting. When he wasn’t lying (which was almost always) he spoke in complete general terms that were meaningless. I honestly don’t even have words for how low a person Trump is.
I read Tim Millers article in this morning’s Bulwark and David Frum’s article last night in the Atlantic…. both were very good and thoughtful. I will gladly vote for Joe Biden or if by some far off chance he leaves the race, I will vote for any Democrat that replaces him.
JVL, you are super smart, but you have been utterly wrong about Biden. Yes, he has served wisely in the job. However, you have ignored the obvious. A president simply has to be able to communicate effectively, it is an all-important part of the job.
We are all sickened by GOP slavish support of Trump. Dems pretending Biden can win is equally irresponsible. I always appreciate reality from the Bulwark.
I couldn't agree more. Especially at a time when so many of our citizens don't even seem to grasp the meaning of the American experiment, the last remaining sane party must have a leader capable of articulating what is at stake. President Biden must drop out of the race, and I feel that all of us who see Trumpism as an unacceptable threat simply must raise a hue and cry that team Biden cannot ignore.
I actually have faith in the dems in choosing a good replacement. It is crazy to assume they will pick a far-left unelectable candidate. They have no recent history of that.....this party picked Biden over Bernie. Harris would have to prove herself to be nominated & if she does then good on her.
Agreed again. I humbly nominate my (Michigan's) intrepid Governor, Gretchen Whitmer, but there are several more who also fit the bill. I'm already convinced that Harris is missing the inspirational/eloquent quality that seems essential now.
Well, people were expecting/ hoping for a sh!tshow, weren't they, and that's what they got.
Joe is old. I wish he was younger; I wish I was younger. I'll vote for the proverbial ham sandwich with a (D) next to its name before I vote for TFG, but I'm not the voter we're trying to get. I personally am confident that Kamala Harris is a vastly better option than TFG, but, again, I'm not the target audience.
Joe still will be old in November. TFG will be old and evil. This debate performance will be ancient history in November -- and it probably will be forgotten as soon as SCOTUS releases the rest of its opinions. But, while we're panicking and considering alternatives, I'd like to beg everyone to:
-- stop trying to make Gavin Newsom happen. I used to live in California, I have no animus toward Newsom, but there is no hope of him resonating with "real American" voters in places like Wisconsin or rural Pennsylvania.
-- same with Gretchen Whitmer. I'll happily vote for her, and I'd love to see a female president in my lifetime, but the first and only objective here is to keep TFG out of the White House, not to check boxes. Misogyny is a powerful thing in the US, we need a candidate who can *win.*
Representation matters, but so does winning and preserving democracy. Kamala Harris is the heir apparent, and again, I'd vote for her, but we all know what her favorables are like. I only can speak for myself, but right now, my first preference is for someone who can get in there and protect my rights rather than someone who looks like me, as much as, again, I'd *love* to have a female president.
Anyway. I'm Team Pete and have been for a long time. I was impressed with Jared Polis, Tim's favorite. Josh Shapiro is great, too. I'm aware that all are white men; my objective is to find someone who can beat TFG.
Love Pete, 2028. 2024: Amy Klobuchar! Wish she was the VP, all respect to Harris. She’d pull in the Midwest, people like her plain speaking, she's got good experience - the full package.
Yes, Trump will still be old and evil in November. And next January. And old and evil and crazy. I'm convinced he's come to believe his own nonsense. We've had Presidents before who I'm sure were not especially virtuous; JFK comes to mind. I can't think of one, however, who was delusional.
You're right. The time has come to put aside any considerations of identity or representation. The sole consideration must be to defeat Trump and do so decisively. (I, too, wish that candidate were Pete but sadly, can't foresee it happening.)
I'll add that I do agree with Douglas Brinkley's comments just now on Morning Joe -- Kamala Harris did an effective job post-debate last night. *I* like her; I'd have preferred her in the AG role, she's at her best when she allows herself to step up and be fierce.
I, I can't listen to him now......
Does anyone wonder if maybe Biden got dosed with something before the debate? He seemed to come around pretty fast after. I'm sure there are two or three hour drugs that render you incoherent and then wear off. Women are on guard about this type of thing all the time
How does one debate against a constant barrage of lies, each one more absurd than could be imagined in debate prep? How do you even prepare for that? And if you are rebutting each lie, how do you have time to highlight your own achievements?
I tried so hard to find the bulwark debate broadcast and could never find it! Wahhh! Clicking on the link didn’t get me there, but instead, as I recall, to some pre-broadcast analysis. What did I do wrong?!
Concerning the documents case which was open and shut, I think it has been given the last rites.
Way too much ragging on CNN here. Everybody knew what the rules were, and any expectation that CNN was going to fact check or challenge Trump in any way after weeks of Trump broadcasting that CNN and Biden were allied against him is nonsensical, especially given CNN's Trump-related screw-ups of the past (remember the Town Hall fiasco?) and CNN's desperate attempt to remain relevant in an utterly Balkanized media environment. Biden will likely stay in all the way to the bitter end, despite last night, or (less likely) may call it a day. But it was on Biden and his team to take the fight to Trump last night, and for the most part he and they failed.
Biden was given numerous opportunities to hammer Trump and went blank every time. That's not CNN's fault.
Bill Clinton and Barack Obama need to go to him and Jill and tell him to decline the nomination. If he was the only one who could beat Trump in 2020 (which I think he was), I think he's the only one who can lose to him in 2024 and if his whole reason for running is that he's the only Democrat that can beat Trump, he needs to go. Will an open convention be chaotic? Yes. But it will likely end with one of the governors on the bench having the nomination who will have a far better chance of beating Trump which is the ultimate goal.
I totally agree with Bill on there needs to be a discussion in the white house now. To those (like the person who will cancel their Bulwark subscription) you are whistling past grave yard here. I don't like to be disagreeable with fellow Bulwarkers,but so be it.
I didn't watch it Thursday night; I turned off my phone around 8:30. I read about it Friday morning, watched a couple hours of Morning Joe then watched the Bulwark post-debate show. The debate was a total shit show. Biden finally did the thing that we all feared he would eventually do. I'd been lulled into a warm fuzzy place by Biden stepping up on and exceeding low expectations on previous occasions. This time he brought to mind my grandmother who exhibited escalating frailty over the last few years of her life. This time, "they" won't need to edit out the paratrooper out of the video clip.
In closing, I'm stealing two JVL line (thanks JVL, and I'm looking forward to today's Secret Pod).
1) It's not great, Bob.
2) Good luck America.
I just looked at the first few minutes here. Mona's dour face says it all. Keep her from the ledge JVL! If Bill is depressed he sure has a good poker face to hide it!
Mona did sum it up nicely as she took her well deserved exit.
Question: The person in the chat who said they were discontinuing their Bulwark subscription-did they say the basis on which they made the decision right after the debate ended?
This was a terrific show. It was a pleasure and an honor to suffer through last night's debate with the Bulwark team and with likeminded people all over the world. Thanks to JVL, Egger, Mona, Bill and AB, and, as always, to Jim Swift and all the people off-camera and off-mike who make it possible.
I am thinking that maybe the people around Biden aren’t willing to say ‘step aside’ in the same way that Trump’s people prop him up. They need to love America more than their guy - that’s how we got here. Where is their person to say the truth? Let’s hope they have one.
I purposely watched the debate last night as a voter, not as a pundit assessing the race. I thought Joe looked and sounded old but he still had some good answers. Sometimes it was very cringy and sometimes it was just fine. He reminded me of a first time debater that was over prepared and had tons of facts in his head and in the 2 mins he had could not determine which facts to use…or whether to rebut the ridiculous lies from Trump. Trump was disgusting. When he wasn’t lying (which was almost always) he spoke in complete general terms that were meaningless. I honestly don’t even have words for how low a person Trump is.
I read Tim Millers article in this morning’s Bulwark and David Frum’s article last night in the Atlantic…. both were very good and thoughtful. I will gladly vote for Joe Biden or if by some far off chance he leaves the race, I will vote for any Democrat that replaces him.
JVL, you are super smart, but you have been utterly wrong about Biden. Yes, he has served wisely in the job. However, you have ignored the obvious. A president simply has to be able to communicate effectively, it is an all-important part of the job.
We are all sickened by GOP slavish support of Trump. Dems pretending Biden can win is equally irresponsible. I always appreciate reality from the Bulwark.
I couldn't agree more. Especially at a time when so many of our citizens don't even seem to grasp the meaning of the American experiment, the last remaining sane party must have a leader capable of articulating what is at stake. President Biden must drop out of the race, and I feel that all of us who see Trumpism as an unacceptable threat simply must raise a hue and cry that team Biden cannot ignore.
I actually have faith in the dems in choosing a good replacement. It is crazy to assume they will pick a far-left unelectable candidate. They have no recent history of that.....this party picked Biden over Bernie. Harris would have to prove herself to be nominated & if she does then good on her.
Agreed again. I humbly nominate my (Michigan's) intrepid Governor, Gretchen Whitmer, but there are several more who also fit the bill. I'm already convinced that Harris is missing the inspirational/eloquent quality that seems essential now.
Amy Klobuchar!
I'm in!
Random pre-caffeine comments:
Well, people were expecting/ hoping for a sh!tshow, weren't they, and that's what they got.
Joe is old. I wish he was younger; I wish I was younger. I'll vote for the proverbial ham sandwich with a (D) next to its name before I vote for TFG, but I'm not the voter we're trying to get. I personally am confident that Kamala Harris is a vastly better option than TFG, but, again, I'm not the target audience.
Joe still will be old in November. TFG will be old and evil. This debate performance will be ancient history in November -- and it probably will be forgotten as soon as SCOTUS releases the rest of its opinions. But, while we're panicking and considering alternatives, I'd like to beg everyone to:
-- stop trying to make Gavin Newsom happen. I used to live in California, I have no animus toward Newsom, but there is no hope of him resonating with "real American" voters in places like Wisconsin or rural Pennsylvania.
-- same with Gretchen Whitmer. I'll happily vote for her, and I'd love to see a female president in my lifetime, but the first and only objective here is to keep TFG out of the White House, not to check boxes. Misogyny is a powerful thing in the US, we need a candidate who can *win.*
Representation matters, but so does winning and preserving democracy. Kamala Harris is the heir apparent, and again, I'd vote for her, but we all know what her favorables are like. I only can speak for myself, but right now, my first preference is for someone who can get in there and protect my rights rather than someone who looks like me, as much as, again, I'd *love* to have a female president.
Anyway. I'm Team Pete and have been for a long time. I was impressed with Jared Polis, Tim's favorite. Josh Shapiro is great, too. I'm aware that all are white men; my objective is to find someone who can beat TFG.
Love Pete, 2028. 2024: Amy Klobuchar! Wish she was the VP, all respect to Harris. She’d pull in the Midwest, people like her plain speaking, she's got good experience - the full package.
Yes, Trump will still be old and evil in November. And next January. And old and evil and crazy. I'm convinced he's come to believe his own nonsense. We've had Presidents before who I'm sure were not especially virtuous; JFK comes to mind. I can't think of one, however, who was delusional.
You're right. The time has come to put aside any considerations of identity or representation. The sole consideration must be to defeat Trump and do so decisively. (I, too, wish that candidate were Pete but sadly, can't foresee it happening.)
I'll add that I do agree with Douglas Brinkley's comments just now on Morning Joe -- Kamala Harris did an effective job post-debate last night. *I* like her; I'd have preferred her in the AG role, she's at her best when she allows herself to step up and be fierce.