What was Smith's answer to Tim's important question on the Conway segment on CNN? Does he think it OK to platform liars (not talking about actual politicians I think you must cover them)
Genuine question because I may have missed it. I think what I heard was:
(1) a general view of the media business;
(2) rejecting that people should look to cable for "real" news coverage (not the loadstar according to him);
(3) then some vague claim that must report on what motivates Trumpers.
(4) something about realignment.
On the last two points, you can have "Trump" whispers who are not Trumpers: Sarah L is the model here. Same is true re-realignment.
His real answer seems to be that No. 2: he does not think much of cable journalism, and it is dying out anyway so no need to hold them to standards. That is an insane response that should not go unchallenged.
I was going to comment that TV news, particularly cable, does have a bias besides right-left and it is in favor of video. But then you told me that the median age of that medium is in the mid 60s and realized what I and my 87 year old MIL think about that it doesn't matter that much. Not sure we do either.
I turned off a CNN story this morning. They were highlighting WSJ's focus on Biden 'slipping'; where are their headlines re TFG? Because in KY parlance, Trump's cheese done slid off his cracker.
Huge respect for Ritchie Torres. From being a respectable and articulate role model for gay kids, to being open about mental health, and to his pro-Israel positions. Great to hear.
Happy to honor queer Palestinians BUT Hamas…end of story. Another naked attempt to erase queer/all Palestinians by default- associating them ALL with terror. Writing this comment from the occupied West Bank and as a gay constituent of rep Torres, who routinely blocks, ignores, and mocks those he purports to represent. The biggest threat to my life here is the IDF checkpoint I will cross to return back home to New York. Stop dehumanizing Palestinians. Stop failing to recognize the brutal conditions imposed upon them by Israel and Israel’s creation. Ritchie Torres takes hundreds of thousands of dollars from AIPAC and stands on the backs and necks of his own constituents to justify mass slaughter, ethnic cleansing and genocide. I am so ashamed to be represented by him, and so ashamed for the Bulwark to whitewash his cravenness. Ritchie should give the Bronx a rep who speaks for the people, and the poorest district in America, instead of a toady for a genocidal regime. At least the interview was short and lacking substance, which mirrors Torres’ tenure as my rep.
"Genocide" has become a trope of the progressive anti-Israel view, and a litmus test of the purity of anyone's anti-Israel views. You can say (as I do) that you detest Bibi and the ultra-right Israelis that are grabbing up West Bank land, and that you believe in a 2-state solution in which Palestinians achieve self-determination (however farfetched that seems after Oct. 7), but if you don't buy into the "Israel is committing genocide in Gaza" trope, you are a fascist. It's another reason why I can't watch or listen to progressive media like NPR anymore on anything involving Israel.
I gave up on NPR when they started saying “pregnant people.”
I hate Bibi and want the settlers slingshot into the sun. I think “two-state solution” is a tired political catchphrase at this point, up there with “good-paying jobs.” (The grammar of that makes me shudder anyway.)
These are all Iranian proxy wars. Iran will never attack us; it fears us. When there are military missteps it’s on the horn to make sure that we know it wasn’t them.
Security around Gaza is going to close like a vise when this war is over. Saudi Arabia wants a relationship with Israel, and I imagine they’d be happy to step up to police Gaza and northern Israel. They’ve got endless resources.
Because Hamas has been crippled, Hezbollah has stepped up. I’m sure the progressives think that’s just awesome and the signs supporting Hezbollah are being crayoned as we speak.
Ninety percent of Americans have never heard the term, “Iron Dome.” They have no idea what Israel means to the US as the only reliable source of ME intel. They don’t care (at all) about Israel as a Jewish homeland, know little to nothing about Shoah, and would cheerfully see Israel destroyed, ignoring that Israel didn’t start this war.
I want the war to end, the hostages returned (if any still live) and their remains if they do not. I want Israel to prohibit Gazan entry altogether. Enough with the jobs and benefits. Israeli Arabs will be untouched; Israel is their homeland as well.
Israel and the US can pump aid through Egypt, just as now. Once Hamas is neutralized perhaps the Palestinians will even get the aid. Under no circumstances will Israel provide aid that threatens its own security.
The cry that Israel’s excesses mean there will be another Hamas are ridiculous. *Of course* there will be another Hamas, because the destruction of Israel is the goal, always. Blaming that on Israel is laughable. There is literally nothing that Israel could do to satisfy the enemy (even if it wanted to). The most Israel can do is confine it and I imagine that will triple now.
I totally agree. The sad thing is that the word "genocide" still has teeth when misused; sadder still that every misuse weakens it, so when we really do need it, it will have lost of lot of its force.
I would urge everyone who disagrees to come and see it for themselves. If Hamas must be ‘eliminated’ and all Palestinians are regarded as Hamas, then it is indeed a genocide, or an attempt at one. They say so themselves, it’s not conjured from nothing. In Zionism the concept of ‘transfer’ (land belong to Arabs being given to Jews) is just a euphemism for ethnic cleansing. Americans clutching their pearls at ‘bad words being used’ changes none of it. Al, thanks for your kind sentiment. Part of the reason I still have hope for this community and remain, for now, a part of it.
No one said all Palestinians are Hamas. Don’t twist my words. The Palestinians who are killed who are not supportive of Hamas are casualties of Hamas’ war.
Zionism is believing that Jews deserve a homeland. Israel is our homeland. Genocide is the attempt through war to wipe out a population. There are more Arabs than there have ever been. No danger of them being wiped out and no attempt on anyone’s part to try.
If there were an actual genocide Israel would have rounded up the many, many Israeli Palestinians and disposed of them. Nothing. Nada Life goes on as it was.
There are fewer Jews in the world now than before the Holocaust. Eighty years and we still haven’t been able to replace everyone. THAT was a genocide.
Israel has belonged to us for thousands of years. I would like to see the West Bank returned to the Palestinians because the settlers are hideous people and Netanyahu is a freaking criminal. We haven’t been in Gaza since 2005 until Gaza’s *elected government” launched a terrorist attack.
Why do you think the Arab nations don’t want the Palestinians? It’s Hamas. If their Arab brethren don’t welcome them, why on earth should Israel, whose population they wish dead?
There cannot be a two-state solution. There cannot be a Palestinian state. Hamas has vowed more of the same as October 7, so if Gaza is rebuilt it will have to be secured by a third-party oversight because absolutely nobody is going to take them in. Maybe Saudi Arabia will volunteer; they want a relationship with Israel. If Gazans thought security into Israel was tight before, they’re really going to hate it now. Israel needs to run its entire country like El Al.
I have some Christian Middle-Eastern in-laws who have gone from never-Trump/maybe-Biden to never-Trump/never-Biden (at least that's kind of how it's been expressed to me) over perceived indifference to Palestinian suffering by the Biden administration. I would not be surprised if there were a fair amount of this out there in the American electorate. Whether this holds through the election. . .time will tell.
13:38 Israel is. . .far more protective of. . .[misc¹] rights. . .than. . .[this, that]. . .the rest of the Muslim world.
I broadly agree with this, but please don't lump all of Islam together. Muslims in Indonesia (the most populous Muslim-majority country) are generally more tolerant (outside of Aceh) than Middle-Eastern Muslims. I have heard queer-positive rhetoric from Indonesians. But I haven't bookmarked it (I'll come back and edit this comment if I stumble on it again). In lieu of that (with anti-misogyny as a substitute for anti-homophobia), 3 young Indonesian Muslim women (in hijab) singing angry feminist lyrics: [Not] Public Property (all in English) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjmcZfOlopU ; Perempuan Merdeka Seutuhnya (verses in English, refrain in Bahasa Indonesia - title translates to Completely Independent Woman) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7vNHMGmxKY Yes, they have received some flak within Indonesia, but they're also broadly popular (e.g. invited to perform on national TV, name-dropped by politicians and members of the administration).
Also, the Israeli right (currently in power) ain't exactly [misc¹] rights friendly - luckily they're occupied with other things (occupying?) at the moment.
¹rights of those outside of the straight male members of the hegemonic class
Perhaps Hamas and its predecessors should have tried peace instead of assassinations and assassination plots. Why do you think no Arab nation will take Palestinians?
Israel is respectful of minorities who live in Israel, including Arabs. Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are not Israeli citizens. Just like any county, in Israel citizens have more rights than non-citizens.
Yeah, like if you’re Palestinian in the West Bank you can only drive on certain roads or live in certain areas. Settlers get to steal your land , light your olive trees on fire, kill your kids, I get what you’re saying.
You're ignoring what I said because it doesn't fit your narrative. I agree that Arabs in the West Bank don't have full rights in Israel, but they aren't citizens. You need to grapple with the fact that Arabs and other minorities who are Israeli citizens are actually treated well.
will be in Michigan as if they sit home he loses Michigan. If a minority of people are really loud the press pays attention. I think Biden should be linking inflation with infrastructure
Great interviews, particularly the first one with Ritchie Torres. I think he's right about a lot of topics around who the party is catering to and how that needs to change. Also awesome that he's able to speak so openly about his past/current mental health struggles (I always respect people who can do that). I think Ben and Derek are both right about the demand-side problem in media, even if it feels depressing. "If it bleeds, it leads" from TV/print media has now become "enragement is engagement" via online and social media. Heck, a solid chunk of JVL's schtick here is enragement-bait (no wonder the Triad often gets the most likes and comments). Charlie's Morning Shots was also often a lot of outrage/depression bait too.
PS: the quick Tim Scott rib on being asexual gave me a good chuckle.
Thanks for having Ritchie Torres on the podcast. It's important that a person of his professional stature, who is connected to the media like yourself.
His discussion on depression struck home for me.
I'm a 70-something who has dealt with depression/ADHD since grammar school, yet I was not diagnosed until I was in my 30s.
Over my early lifetime I was told to "buck-up," "you need to think positive," "It could be worse," "you of all people...you seem so positive." --- and on and on.
These awkward (while well-intentioned) offerings actually add to the depression since such intentional terms are so superficial.
Talk therapy was important for me to help create work-arounds to have a solid professional career. Likewise, I too was on the Rx Wellbutrin, as well as a number of others until I found the one that worked for my particular brain chemistry.
Keep up the good work, Tim.
BTW - I loved Ben Smith's demographic watching various cable news shows...I do know the names of the shows I watch, not just the cable channel number.
Perhaps having a degree in a "Social Science" discipline, my ADHC leans much closer to words than with numbers.
You spent a lot of time talking about how maybe the reason Biden is seeing a decrease in the polls is because Dems aren’t talking about how they plan to alleviate their economic pain. I hear you. They could always, I guess, say it more (even though the amount of issues people want Biden and Dems to focus on is…vast. Democracy, abortion, drilling for oil, climate, trump crime-ing, authoritarian, Ukraine, Israel, immigration, etc.) but is that really the issue? From what I can tell Trump and the gop NEVER talk about these issues. Shoot adding a 10% tariff on everything (which is a Trump plan) would actively make life worse for these people. So I guess what I’m asking is it really why they are leaving or is it because of the cultural stuff. I tend to think it is which means the “real” thing to do (I don’t recommend it because 1 I don’t agree and 2 it kills base turnout)?
Maybe Biden should be taking some credit for the FBI raid of Cortland, related to its use of RealPage? That's a pocketbook issue of interest to people on both sides of the aisle. It's a real populist-appeal item and might make Trump look bad by association, painting him with the ugly-landlord brush (he certainly has some baggage in that area already) https://popular.info/p/feds-raid-corporate-landlord-escalating
I mean there are a 100 things he “could” focus on. I didn’t even know about what you wrote. I had to look it up so I am not sure that will land with people who know nothing about politics. The question is what will land. If someone thinks Trump is better on the economy I just don’t know how you change that voters mind
What was Smith's answer to Tim's important question on the Conway segment on CNN? Does he think it OK to platform liars (not talking about actual politicians I think you must cover them)
Genuine question because I may have missed it. I think what I heard was:
(1) a general view of the media business;
(2) rejecting that people should look to cable for "real" news coverage (not the loadstar according to him);
(3) then some vague claim that must report on what motivates Trumpers.
(4) something about realignment.
On the last two points, you can have "Trump" whispers who are not Trumpers: Sarah L is the model here. Same is true re-realignment.
His real answer seems to be that No. 2: he does not think much of cable journalism, and it is dying out anyway so no need to hold them to standards. That is an insane response that should not go unchallenged.
I’ve liked Rep Torres since he took up for Israel.
I wonder where “Queer Palestinians” would live? Most certainly not Gaza.
I was going to comment that TV news, particularly cable, does have a bias besides right-left and it is in favor of video. But then you told me that the median age of that medium is in the mid 60s and realized what I and my 87 year old MIL think about that it doesn't matter that much. Not sure we do either.
I turned off a CNN story this morning. They were highlighting WSJ's focus on Biden 'slipping'; where are their headlines re TFG? Because in KY parlance, Trump's cheese done slid off his cracker.
Huge respect for Ritchie Torres. From being a respectable and articulate role model for gay kids, to being open about mental health, and to his pro-Israel positions. Great to hear.
You missed an opportunity to play Boogie Down Productions.
Happy to honor queer Palestinians BUT Hamas…end of story. Another naked attempt to erase queer/all Palestinians by default- associating them ALL with terror. Writing this comment from the occupied West Bank and as a gay constituent of rep Torres, who routinely blocks, ignores, and mocks those he purports to represent. The biggest threat to my life here is the IDF checkpoint I will cross to return back home to New York. Stop dehumanizing Palestinians. Stop failing to recognize the brutal conditions imposed upon them by Israel and Israel’s creation. Ritchie Torres takes hundreds of thousands of dollars from AIPAC and stands on the backs and necks of his own constituents to justify mass slaughter, ethnic cleansing and genocide. I am so ashamed to be represented by him, and so ashamed for the Bulwark to whitewash his cravenness. Ritchie should give the Bronx a rep who speaks for the people, and the poorest district in America, instead of a toady for a genocidal regime. At least the interview was short and lacking substance, which mirrors Torres’ tenure as my rep.
I disagree with everything you wrote, but I hope and pray that you make it home safely. Godspeed in your travels!
Me too. The word “genocide” is basically a drinking game at this point. People who use it don’t know or care what it means.
"Genocide" has become a trope of the progressive anti-Israel view, and a litmus test of the purity of anyone's anti-Israel views. You can say (as I do) that you detest Bibi and the ultra-right Israelis that are grabbing up West Bank land, and that you believe in a 2-state solution in which Palestinians achieve self-determination (however farfetched that seems after Oct. 7), but if you don't buy into the "Israel is committing genocide in Gaza" trope, you are a fascist. It's another reason why I can't watch or listen to progressive media like NPR anymore on anything involving Israel.
I gave up on NPR when they started saying “pregnant people.”
I hate Bibi and want the settlers slingshot into the sun. I think “two-state solution” is a tired political catchphrase at this point, up there with “good-paying jobs.” (The grammar of that makes me shudder anyway.)
These are all Iranian proxy wars. Iran will never attack us; it fears us. When there are military missteps it’s on the horn to make sure that we know it wasn’t them.
Security around Gaza is going to close like a vise when this war is over. Saudi Arabia wants a relationship with Israel, and I imagine they’d be happy to step up to police Gaza and northern Israel. They’ve got endless resources.
Because Hamas has been crippled, Hezbollah has stepped up. I’m sure the progressives think that’s just awesome and the signs supporting Hezbollah are being crayoned as we speak.
Ninety percent of Americans have never heard the term, “Iron Dome.” They have no idea what Israel means to the US as the only reliable source of ME intel. They don’t care (at all) about Israel as a Jewish homeland, know little to nothing about Shoah, and would cheerfully see Israel destroyed, ignoring that Israel didn’t start this war.
I want the war to end, the hostages returned (if any still live) and their remains if they do not. I want Israel to prohibit Gazan entry altogether. Enough with the jobs and benefits. Israeli Arabs will be untouched; Israel is their homeland as well.
Israel and the US can pump aid through Egypt, just as now. Once Hamas is neutralized perhaps the Palestinians will even get the aid. Under no circumstances will Israel provide aid that threatens its own security.
The cry that Israel’s excesses mean there will be another Hamas are ridiculous. *Of course* there will be another Hamas, because the destruction of Israel is the goal, always. Blaming that on Israel is laughable. There is literally nothing that Israel could do to satisfy the enemy (even if it wanted to). The most Israel can do is confine it and I imagine that will triple now.
I totally agree. The sad thing is that the word "genocide" still has teeth when misused; sadder still that every misuse weakens it, so when we really do need it, it will have lost of lot of its force.
It’s up there with “ethnic cleansing,” another term that has an actual meaning.
I would urge everyone who disagrees to come and see it for themselves. If Hamas must be ‘eliminated’ and all Palestinians are regarded as Hamas, then it is indeed a genocide, or an attempt at one. They say so themselves, it’s not conjured from nothing. In Zionism the concept of ‘transfer’ (land belong to Arabs being given to Jews) is just a euphemism for ethnic cleansing. Americans clutching their pearls at ‘bad words being used’ changes none of it. Al, thanks for your kind sentiment. Part of the reason I still have hope for this community and remain, for now, a part of it.
No one said all Palestinians are Hamas. Don’t twist my words. The Palestinians who are killed who are not supportive of Hamas are casualties of Hamas’ war.
Zionism is believing that Jews deserve a homeland. Israel is our homeland. Genocide is the attempt through war to wipe out a population. There are more Arabs than there have ever been. No danger of them being wiped out and no attempt on anyone’s part to try.
If there were an actual genocide Israel would have rounded up the many, many Israeli Palestinians and disposed of them. Nothing. Nada Life goes on as it was.
There are fewer Jews in the world now than before the Holocaust. Eighty years and we still haven’t been able to replace everyone. THAT was a genocide.
Israel has belonged to us for thousands of years. I would like to see the West Bank returned to the Palestinians because the settlers are hideous people and Netanyahu is a freaking criminal. We haven’t been in Gaza since 2005 until Gaza’s *elected government” launched a terrorist attack.
Why do you think the Arab nations don’t want the Palestinians? It’s Hamas. If their Arab brethren don’t welcome them, why on earth should Israel, whose population they wish dead?
There cannot be a two-state solution. There cannot be a Palestinian state. Hamas has vowed more of the same as October 7, so if Gaza is rebuilt it will have to be secured by a third-party oversight because absolutely nobody is going to take them in. Maybe Saudi Arabia will volunteer; they want a relationship with Israel. If Gazans thought security into Israel was tight before, they’re really going to hate it now. Israel needs to run its entire country like El Al.
I have some Christian Middle-Eastern in-laws who have gone from never-Trump/maybe-Biden to never-Trump/never-Biden (at least that's kind of how it's been expressed to me) over perceived indifference to Palestinian suffering by the Biden administration. I would not be surprised if there were a fair amount of this out there in the American electorate. Whether this holds through the election. . .time will tell.
13:38 Israel is. . .far more protective of. . .[misc¹] rights. . .than. . .[this, that]. . .the rest of the Muslim world.
I broadly agree with this, but please don't lump all of Islam together. Muslims in Indonesia (the most populous Muslim-majority country) are generally more tolerant (outside of Aceh) than Middle-Eastern Muslims. I have heard queer-positive rhetoric from Indonesians. But I haven't bookmarked it (I'll come back and edit this comment if I stumble on it again). In lieu of that (with anti-misogyny as a substitute for anti-homophobia), 3 young Indonesian Muslim women (in hijab) singing angry feminist lyrics: [Not] Public Property (all in English) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjmcZfOlopU ; Perempuan Merdeka Seutuhnya (verses in English, refrain in Bahasa Indonesia - title translates to Completely Independent Woman) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7vNHMGmxKY Yes, they have received some flak within Indonesia, but they're also broadly popular (e.g. invited to perform on national TV, name-dropped by politicians and members of the administration).
Also, the Israeli right (currently in power) ain't exactly [misc¹] rights friendly - luckily they're occupied with other things (occupying?) at the moment.
¹rights of those outside of the straight male members of the hegemonic class
Rep. Ritchie Torres, “ the state of Israel is respectful of minorities.” He should ask the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank. Ridiculous.
Diverse Israeli citizens, including Arabs. It’s a multi-national and polyglot nation.
You’re right, it has little tolerance for those who wish it destroyed.
I wholly agree with you on the little tolerance issue, they’ve been demonstrating that since 1948.
Perhaps Hamas and its predecessors should have tried peace instead of assassinations and assassination plots. Why do you think no Arab nation will take Palestinians?
They could try Iran, I suppose.
This is as far as I go, keep thinking as you wish and so will I. Peace.
Israel is respectful of minorities who live in Israel, including Arabs. Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are not Israeli citizens. Just like any county, in Israel citizens have more rights than non-citizens.
Yeah, like if you’re Palestinian in the West Bank you can only drive on certain roads or live in certain areas. Settlers get to steal your land , light your olive trees on fire, kill your kids, I get what you’re saying.
You're ignoring what I said because it doesn't fit your narrative. I agree that Arabs in the West Bank don't have full rights in Israel, but they aren't citizens. You need to grapple with the fact that Arabs and other minorities who are Israeli citizens are actually treated well.
Sorry man, I don’t even know you, keep thinking what you will and so will I. I’m not on here to argue, who knows I may even learn something.
probably the second
will be in Michigan as if they sit home he loses Michigan. If a minority of people are really loud the press pays attention. I think Biden should be linking inflation with infrastructure
The Tim Scott ace shout out!! I cackled on the train hahahaha!!
Great interviews, particularly the first one with Ritchie Torres. I think he's right about a lot of topics around who the party is catering to and how that needs to change. Also awesome that he's able to speak so openly about his past/current mental health struggles (I always respect people who can do that). I think Ben and Derek are both right about the demand-side problem in media, even if it feels depressing. "If it bleeds, it leads" from TV/print media has now become "enragement is engagement" via online and social media. Heck, a solid chunk of JVL's schtick here is enragement-bait (no wonder the Triad often gets the most likes and comments). Charlie's Morning Shots was also often a lot of outrage/depression bait too.
PS: the quick Tim Scott rib on being asexual gave me a good chuckle.
Tim Scott! I spit my water out at the gym.
Tim,
Thanks for having Ritchie Torres on the podcast. It's important that a person of his professional stature, who is connected to the media like yourself.
His discussion on depression struck home for me.
I'm a 70-something who has dealt with depression/ADHD since grammar school, yet I was not diagnosed until I was in my 30s.
Over my early lifetime I was told to "buck-up," "you need to think positive," "It could be worse," "you of all people...you seem so positive." --- and on and on.
These awkward (while well-intentioned) offerings actually add to the depression since such intentional terms are so superficial.
Talk therapy was important for me to help create work-arounds to have a solid professional career. Likewise, I too was on the Rx Wellbutrin, as well as a number of others until I found the one that worked for my particular brain chemistry.
Keep up the good work, Tim.
BTW - I loved Ben Smith's demographic watching various cable news shows...I do know the names of the shows I watch, not just the cable channel number.
Perhaps having a degree in a "Social Science" discipline, my ADHC leans much closer to words than with numbers.
Another great podcast Tim. Crushing it.
You spent a lot of time talking about how maybe the reason Biden is seeing a decrease in the polls is because Dems aren’t talking about how they plan to alleviate their economic pain. I hear you. They could always, I guess, say it more (even though the amount of issues people want Biden and Dems to focus on is…vast. Democracy, abortion, drilling for oil, climate, trump crime-ing, authoritarian, Ukraine, Israel, immigration, etc.) but is that really the issue? From what I can tell Trump and the gop NEVER talk about these issues. Shoot adding a 10% tariff on everything (which is a Trump plan) would actively make life worse for these people. So I guess what I’m asking is it really why they are leaving or is it because of the cultural stuff. I tend to think it is which means the “real” thing to do (I don’t recommend it because 1 I don’t agree and 2 it kills base turnout)?
Maybe Biden should be taking some credit for the FBI raid of Cortland, related to its use of RealPage? That's a pocketbook issue of interest to people on both sides of the aisle. It's a real populist-appeal item and might make Trump look bad by association, painting him with the ugly-landlord brush (he certainly has some baggage in that area already) https://popular.info/p/feds-raid-corporate-landlord-escalating
I mean there are a 100 things he “could” focus on. I didn’t even know about what you wrote. I had to look it up so I am not sure that will land with people who know nothing about politics. The question is what will land. If someone thinks Trump is better on the economy I just don’t know how you change that voters mind