I can't recommend Charlie's interview with Russell Moore enough. It was an excellent discussion of the ways in which politics and religion work in today's society. Listen to it!
Cut some slack to the young Republican and her inability to name a single economic policy that is undermining America. How can she even think about economic polic…
I can't recommend Charlie's interview with Russell Moore enough. It was an excellent discussion of the ways in which politics and religion work in today's society. Listen to it!
Cut some slack to the young Republican and her inability to name a single economic policy that is undermining America. How can she even think about economic policy when she has to worry about trans people having rights and everyone not having a gun?
At what point does our society connect the dots of what people like her say out loud but most others think privately, that the gun issue is so important to them because ultimately they can use the weapon against others like trans people when enough lawmakers and friendly judges decide that it is a justifiable form of self-defense against what they do not like and want to eradicate?
I’m sure that churches, incl mine, can be classist and exclusionary. But we are led to believe that in order to attract working class members we need to retreat on inclusion (race, sexuality, gender), instead of providing a loving, supporting community.
I've long thought that a big reason for the decline in church participation is linked to economic precarity. People going through a divorce or unemployment should feel like their church is there for them--instead, it's quite common for them to stop going to church because they are embarrassed or ashamed--"everybody else seems to be doing so well so what is wrong with me?"
Not if you are Newt Gingrich (he had has two marriages "annulled") or Joe Kennedy (who received an from his wife Sheila Rauch Kennedy after 11 years of marriage, two sons, and a civil divorce - she fought the annulment and won after 10 years) or someone with money and influence.
I’m following it now! I go to an almost all black church (almost because of me and 4 other people) and evangelical religion plays out much different there, including the outreach component.
I agree that the interview with Russell Moore was terrific. I found his comments about conversations with pastors who cannot, in their own churches, sound like Jesus for fear of their parishioners calling them "too woke." All that turn-the-other-cheek" stuff is just weak...
They need to put butts in pews because those butts give the money that keeps the church operating. Truth is great and all, but somebody's gotta pay the bills, right? I wished Moore had said he pointed this out to his pastor friends, but it sounds like he didn't. Jesus was poor, virtuous. Jesus cared about people. All people. Where did those ideas go?
This is specifically true of conservative churches, such as Southern Baptist or evangelical sects. Those Pastors are funded by the collection plate. Episcopalians, Methodists, not so much.
I don’t know where they disappeared because I must not have been paying attention. I still thought that stuff was true.
Jesus was not a capitalist. No amount of interpreting the OT patriarchs, kings and Job (whoever he was) will make that so. Jesus did actually say a lot of “woke” stuff, if you interpret basic principles of justice as “woke.”
I’m not going to change to fit the current milieu in White Ev Church circles. I could leave (the new American Anglicans are appealing) or I could stay and fight. I’ve chosen the latter. I will speak out and I will keep speaking out. We’re blessed to have a new young pastor is speaking out as well.
I was brought up going with (read: being dragged by) my mother 3x/week to the local Church of Christ. Dad, incredibly enough, was an atheist, yet he accompanied the family every Sunday morning, some Sunday nights and, rarely, on Wednesdays to evening services. Every preacher we had tried to "save" Dad, but he quickly and politely let them know they were wasting their time, and proceeded to genuinely befriend them. Once, during the reception after a wedding, officiated by the minister of the moment, Dad asked this preacher, "Bennie, do you really believe all the shit in your sermons?" This preacher, with a beer (GASP!) in hand, looked around the room to see if anyone was paying attention to him and Dad, and replied, "Lew, if these people knew what I really believe, they'd tar and feather me and ride me out of town in a rail." I have not one doubt that the same is true for all these mega-church con artists.
Makes me sad though I believe it. I have met Pastors and spoken with a couple who basically feel that the great swathes of the Bible should be torn out and thrown away. I’ve met an atheist pastor as well. Now many of those prefer the term minister or reverend and love the collar, but not all of them. Especially through the pandemic there were many, many pastors who questioned everything they believed and many left the church. Burn out is high.
The pastors that I’ve known well, truly believe. I’m sad for those attending churches where their ministers are just going through the motions but I get it.
Maybe these guys need to start looking into side gigs.
There's a shortage of carpenters in the US. Also the fishing industry needs a lot of immigrant labor, there's another potential side gig for these guys.
I haven’t heard the Russell Moore interview yet; but I will listen to it today. I’m wondering if Dr Moore & Charlie touch on the interview Moore gave the NYT “Anglican” blogger (sorry, my bias. The reverend lady may be a professed Anglican but she represents a schismatic faction that isn’t recognized by the Anglican Communion, our official group.) In the interview Dr Moore justified Evangelical paranoia by stating that Evangelicals are exercised because “people” want to do away with organized religion, a ridiculous comment doing a lot of heavy lifting. No-one with any real political power in any party in the US is suggesting getting rid of organized religion. And a major religious coalition getting their knickers in a twist because Secular Bob on the platform formerly known as Twitter needs to grow up.
I think I read that interview. I have to say, reading comments on NYT does give the impression there are a lot of people with disdain for organized religion and would welcome any diminishing of their power/influence. Maybe I notice, because I’m one of them.
I think South Park put it well in one of their episodes involving Mormonism. The kid who was telling one of the main characters about Mormonism didn't really care much about the fact that the founding of Mormonism was a scam - but more how it helped his family to be a family and to live good charitable lives. That is religion at its best.
If you are of a mainline denomination you might think that the Book of Mormon was written by a human with an agenda without divine inspiration. Some of us feel that way about the Old and New Testaments and the Koran (among other "Holy" books).
At the end of the day, under the American Constitution, what religion you are shouldn't matter any more to government than what color socks you wear. But there are those who believe in certain religions that would make it so that it does matter. I am sure that is where any "disdain" you feel comes from.
Yes we agree, I think. I feel disdain for people who feel morally superior to others, based in their religious teachings or even just their religious identity (most self-identified Christians I know couldn’t tell me where they go to church, because they don’t), and I also feel disdain for people who expect others to adhere to their religious beliefs in the secular world.
I think most religions start with sincere beliefs favoring goodness. But the message is inevitably hijacked for power agendas. People have a powerful need to explore spirituality; I think of it like sex - keep it to yourself and do it in private.
Now my brain is trying to figure out how to pronounce cilantrotacy. I'd propose cilantromacy instead, but that sounds like someone trying to do dark magic with cilantro.
If somebody has time to be active in the NYT comments section, I would propose that they don't have enough to do and it's a safe assumption that they have no power/influence.
Sure, but -- forgive me -- yours is one opinion among hundred millions in this country. And there’s no-one carrying water for you in Congress or the WH, where the current incumbent is particularly devout and very public about it.
Christians’ rewards are in the afterlife. We’re not supposed to care about popularity contests in the temporal world. But if indeed the popularity contests matter, then maybe Evangelicals like Dr Moore need to evaluate why people are turning away from their rigid, sexist, misogynistic, at-times-hateful beliefs that split families. The answer probably isn’t “be more biblical.”
Yes, what you describe is reminiscent of many minority perspectives that are nonetheless governing our public life. Most people want gun control, more reproductive rights, national basic healthcare, help with childcare expenses, help with elder care, etc. Regardless of popular support, it’s clear we will never have those things. Religion likewise has an invisible cloak of impunity and immunity from scrutiny regarding their public influence; politics from the pulpit is supposed to be taboo under our tax laws, but it goes on with obvious awareness of impunity.
I don’t know anyone advocating state coercion to shut down religion. But I do question, for example, the favorable treatment regarding taxation, in some of these mega money machines using the cloak or religiosity to avoid paying for the commons that they enjoy.
As do I. I have no problem with a nonprofit tax exemption for one church building and pastor's home but these millions of acres and monster campuses that take and take and take public services without paying one dime of property or income tax has gone beyond acceptable imho.
It’s a minefield. I’ve never seen the numbers -- so I could be wrong -- but I’m betting there are far more small churches/non-profits that take in less than $300,000 annually than there are mega churches. Most mainline Protestant churches are probably at the $300k level. And in my state, we pay property taxes.
That seems likely, that the mega churches awash in money are unrepresentative of the majority of congregations. But they do seem to have an outsize influence on the culture wars, etc.
I hadn’t considered property taxes. I wonder how many states send property tax bills to churches. Good point.
I can't recommend Charlie's interview with Russell Moore enough. It was an excellent discussion of the ways in which politics and religion work in today's society. Listen to it!
Cut some slack to the young Republican and her inability to name a single economic policy that is undermining America. How can she even think about economic policy when she has to worry about trans people having rights and everyone not having a gun?
Yup 🙄
At what point does our society connect the dots of what people like her say out loud but most others think privately, that the gun issue is so important to them because ultimately they can use the weapon against others like trans people when enough lawmakers and friendly judges decide that it is a justifiable form of self-defense against what they do not like and want to eradicate?
Is anyone following Graphs About Religion on Substack? https://substack.com/inbox/post/135451326
He's been pointing out that churches more and more focus on college-educated parishioners, and that low-income people are leaving their churches.
I’m sure that churches, incl mine, can be classist and exclusionary. But we are led to believe that in order to attract working class members we need to retreat on inclusion (race, sexuality, gender), instead of providing a loving, supporting community.
Anybody else see this in The Atlantic? https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/07/christian-church-communitiy-participation-drop/674843/
I've long thought that a big reason for the decline in church participation is linked to economic precarity. People going through a divorce or unemployment should feel like their church is there for them--instead, it's quite common for them to stop going to church because they are embarrassed or ashamed--"everybody else seems to be doing so well so what is wrong with me?"
^^ THIS. At its root church is about community, which picks up the pieces when disaster hits and/or faith departs.
You aren't excommunicated, but you can't have communion. Which is why I am now an Episcopalian and wondering why I didn't switch sooner.
Not if you are Newt Gingrich (he had has two marriages "annulled") or Joe Kennedy (who received an from his wife Sheila Rauch Kennedy after 11 years of marriage, two sons, and a civil divorce - she fought the annulment and won after 10 years) or someone with money and influence.
And not supposed to take Holy Communion according to U.S. Bishops Assn.
Which Pope Paco excoriated saying if a person is baptized he/she has the right to receive the sacrament.
But, of course, some U.S. bishops ignore him.
I’m following it now! I go to an almost all black church (almost because of me and 4 other people) and evangelical religion plays out much different there, including the outreach component.
I agree that the interview with Russell Moore was terrific. I found his comments about conversations with pastors who cannot, in their own churches, sound like Jesus for fear of their parishioners calling them "too woke." All that turn-the-other-cheek" stuff is just weak...
They need to put butts in pews because those butts give the money that keeps the church operating. Truth is great and all, but somebody's gotta pay the bills, right? I wished Moore had said he pointed this out to his pastor friends, but it sounds like he didn't. Jesus was poor, virtuous. Jesus cared about people. All people. Where did those ideas go?
This is specifically true of conservative churches, such as Southern Baptist or evangelical sects. Those Pastors are funded by the collection plate. Episcopalians, Methodists, not so much.
Can confirm Episcopalian priests (American Anglicans, not so new) are salaried.
I don’t know where they disappeared because I must not have been paying attention. I still thought that stuff was true.
Jesus was not a capitalist. No amount of interpreting the OT patriarchs, kings and Job (whoever he was) will make that so. Jesus did actually say a lot of “woke” stuff, if you interpret basic principles of justice as “woke.”
I’m not going to change to fit the current milieu in White Ev Church circles. I could leave (the new American Anglicans are appealing) or I could stay and fight. I’ve chosen the latter. I will speak out and I will keep speaking out. We’re blessed to have a new young pastor is speaking out as well.
Tax the church?
I was brought up going with (read: being dragged by) my mother 3x/week to the local Church of Christ. Dad, incredibly enough, was an atheist, yet he accompanied the family every Sunday morning, some Sunday nights and, rarely, on Wednesdays to evening services. Every preacher we had tried to "save" Dad, but he quickly and politely let them know they were wasting their time, and proceeded to genuinely befriend them. Once, during the reception after a wedding, officiated by the minister of the moment, Dad asked this preacher, "Bennie, do you really believe all the shit in your sermons?" This preacher, with a beer (GASP!) in hand, looked around the room to see if anyone was paying attention to him and Dad, and replied, "Lew, if these people knew what I really believe, they'd tar and feather me and ride me out of town in a rail." I have not one doubt that the same is true for all these mega-church con artists.
Makes me sad though I believe it. I have met Pastors and spoken with a couple who basically feel that the great swathes of the Bible should be torn out and thrown away. I’ve met an atheist pastor as well. Now many of those prefer the term minister or reverend and love the collar, but not all of them. Especially through the pandemic there were many, many pastors who questioned everything they believed and many left the church. Burn out is high.
The pastors that I’ve known well, truly believe. I’m sad for those attending churches where their ministers are just going through the motions but I get it.
"It is hard to convince a man of something if his paycheck depends upon his not being convinced of it."
U. Sinclair
Looked it up: It was Sinclair, and here's the exact quote:
" It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
Orwell just said that he always said it. ;)
Maybe these guys need to start looking into side gigs.
There's a shortage of carpenters in the US. Also the fishing industry needs a lot of immigrant labor, there's another potential side gig for these guys.
What you did there...I saw it.
Excellent ideas. Nothing will teach humility faster than a day working as a carpenter.
It dovetails with Tim Alberta's article in The Atlantic. Confrontation and animus sells.
I haven’t heard the Russell Moore interview yet; but I will listen to it today. I’m wondering if Dr Moore & Charlie touch on the interview Moore gave the NYT “Anglican” blogger (sorry, my bias. The reverend lady may be a professed Anglican but she represents a schismatic faction that isn’t recognized by the Anglican Communion, our official group.) In the interview Dr Moore justified Evangelical paranoia by stating that Evangelicals are exercised because “people” want to do away with organized religion, a ridiculous comment doing a lot of heavy lifting. No-one with any real political power in any party in the US is suggesting getting rid of organized religion. And a major religious coalition getting their knickers in a twist because Secular Bob on the platform formerly known as Twitter needs to grow up.
I think I read that interview. I have to say, reading comments on NYT does give the impression there are a lot of people with disdain for organized religion and would welcome any diminishing of their power/influence. Maybe I notice, because I’m one of them.
Disdain. No. Disregard. Maybe.
I think South Park put it well in one of their episodes involving Mormonism. The kid who was telling one of the main characters about Mormonism didn't really care much about the fact that the founding of Mormonism was a scam - but more how it helped his family to be a family and to live good charitable lives. That is religion at its best.
If you are of a mainline denomination you might think that the Book of Mormon was written by a human with an agenda without divine inspiration. Some of us feel that way about the Old and New Testaments and the Koran (among other "Holy" books).
At the end of the day, under the American Constitution, what religion you are shouldn't matter any more to government than what color socks you wear. But there are those who believe in certain religions that would make it so that it does matter. I am sure that is where any "disdain" you feel comes from.
Yes we agree, I think. I feel disdain for people who feel morally superior to others, based in their religious teachings or even just their religious identity (most self-identified Christians I know couldn’t tell me where they go to church, because they don’t), and I also feel disdain for people who expect others to adhere to their religious beliefs in the secular world.
I think most religions start with sincere beliefs favoring goodness. But the message is inevitably hijacked for power agendas. People have a powerful need to explore spirituality; I think of it like sex - keep it to yourself and do it in private.
And some people also believe that cilantro tastes good. That doesn't mean they're in favor of instituting some cilantroctacy, or eliminating oregano.
I've been playing too much D&D because I read that as cilantromancy. Now I'm off to summon a burrito.
I roll to disbelieve.
Critical miss. You take 2d8 picante damage.
Too much D&D or too many burritos?
[Insert pic of, "Why not both?"]
Now my brain is trying to figure out how to pronounce cilantrotacy. I'd propose cilantromacy instead, but that sounds like someone trying to do dark magic with cilantro.
I’d vote for a basilocracy, myself. We may have to rumble.
Nothing beats a chilliocracy 🌶️.
It was supposed to be "cilantrocracy," but Swype doesn't seem to think the second "c" belongs, there. A sign they're in on the conspiracy?
If somebody has time to be active in the NYT comments section, I would propose that they don't have enough to do and it's a safe assumption that they have no power/influence.
One could make the same suggestion about the comments section here, I suppose.
I'm active in both - I like the ability to have a rational discourse about the items that are presented.
I'm not sure what power/influence has to do with discussing ideas and articles.
Thanks for saying what I was thinking. I wasn’t sure I understood the message.
Sure, but -- forgive me -- yours is one opinion among hundred millions in this country. And there’s no-one carrying water for you in Congress or the WH, where the current incumbent is particularly devout and very public about it.
Christians’ rewards are in the afterlife. We’re not supposed to care about popularity contests in the temporal world. But if indeed the popularity contests matter, then maybe Evangelicals like Dr Moore need to evaluate why people are turning away from their rigid, sexist, misogynistic, at-times-hateful beliefs that split families. The answer probably isn’t “be more biblical.”
Yes, what you describe is reminiscent of many minority perspectives that are nonetheless governing our public life. Most people want gun control, more reproductive rights, national basic healthcare, help with childcare expenses, help with elder care, etc. Regardless of popular support, it’s clear we will never have those things. Religion likewise has an invisible cloak of impunity and immunity from scrutiny regarding their public influence; politics from the pulpit is supposed to be taboo under our tax laws, but it goes on with obvious awareness of impunity.
Right but welcoming the diminution of organized religion is different than advocating for state coercion to accomplish that objective.
Well, “do away with organized religion,” “get rid of organized religion” imply a degree of state coercion, given that religious freedom is protected.
Convincing people to turn away from organized religion doesn’t seem to imply any sort of state coercion.
I don’t know anyone advocating state coercion to shut down religion. But I do question, for example, the favorable treatment regarding taxation, in some of these mega money machines using the cloak or religiosity to avoid paying for the commons that they enjoy.
As do I. I have no problem with a nonprofit tax exemption for one church building and pastor's home but these millions of acres and monster campuses that take and take and take public services without paying one dime of property or income tax has gone beyond acceptable imho.
It’s a minefield. I’ve never seen the numbers -- so I could be wrong -- but I’m betting there are far more small churches/non-profits that take in less than $300,000 annually than there are mega churches. Most mainline Protestant churches are probably at the $300k level. And in my state, we pay property taxes.
Which state is that? A quick search is turning up the general trend that Churches are immune from property taxes.
Maryland. Payable to my county. I’m sure we’re assessed at a lower rate, since I got my property tax bill for my home, which is considerably more.
this link has some details. Specifically around page 11.
https://dat.maryland.gov/Documents/File07_Exemption_Overview_9_29_14.pdf
Sounds like Maryland is much more strict on exemptions, but that some do exist.
That seems likely, that the mega churches awash in money are unrepresentative of the majority of congregations. But they do seem to have an outsize influence on the culture wars, etc.
I hadn’t considered property taxes. I wonder how many states send property tax bills to churches. Good point.
It's dangerous out there! Sometimes I get so anxious I might encounter an unarmed stranger I can't even leave the house.
I know the feeling! You look at their waistband and you don’t see a 9mm and you wonder, what are they gonna do.