Utah voter here. There’s only one Mike Lee. And I’ll go ahead and speak for the legions who voted against him and tried to eject him from the Senate: Eff Mike Lee, that freaking seditionist.
In 2015, my mother in law was really excited about Trump. I hit her with what I was SURE would cause her to recoil: Trump’s insistence that we should kill the families of terrorists, including innocent women and children. “Yes,” she replied about blinking an eye, “it’s them or us.”
Anne’s smart, and she’s a committed Christian. Teaches Sunday school. Voted for Obama. Not a wacko. But her half-blind, half-deaf diabetic husband listened to Fox News and Cops 12 hours a day on full volume. And she’s been quietly MAGA for a decade now. Just retreats in any situation where she might have to explain herself or defend him, but she “doesn’t know what to believe anymore,” so she just defaults to whatever the people who look like her and appear to share her values say. Which, for reasons I can’t understand, somehow doesn’t include the two people she loves most in the world, her sister and daughter. I think Hannah Arendt had something to say about that sort of thing, the ideal subject of totalitarian rule.
She’s just as wacko, but you’d never know it from her appearance or demeanor.
Thanks for describing my mother, uncle and many more family members. :(
I completely empathize with you. It's really sad losing our loved ones to very basic fear instincts being stoked by people who are actively ginning up the things they claim to "be against".
My mother is college educated, first woman in her family to have an advanced degree. She always was kind to my friends. I grew up in Missouri. When I was in high school, a friend of mine came out as gay. His conservative and religious parents disowned him. My mom put him up in our house, and mediated with his parents. My mom used to be upset about "old dudes whose dicks don't work" telling women about their bodily autonomy.
Now - she's talking about how all abortions are awful, how women abuse it to avoid responsibility, how we're being invaded, the world is on fire...and Trump is the guy to stop it.
No amount of appealing to her logic or knowledge will help. I've tried emotional appeals, she just gets defensive. She is retired, is a type 1 diabetic (well managed her whole life but it's getting worse), she isn't rich, her friends are dying, and after my grandfather died her siblings went full "Knives Out" and were total vultures over his inheritance - she got screwed over in the process.
The world is a scary place and she is deeply resentful. She did what she was told to do and never fully achieved what was promised. In these situations people either A) work to fix the underlying issue or B) look to tear everyone else down to feel better.
My mother chose B.
My approach, as sad as it is, is just to call out her inability to self reflect, how the values she instilled in me are opposed to Trump / MAGA and calling lies blatant lies.
I've felt for a long time that shows like cops and Jerry Springer - that show the worst side of people - is also part of the indoctrination process. I've seen perfectly decent people- Christians all - decide to "other" the people they see on TV based on those shows.
I appreciate the even-handed way you describe this sad situation. My main defense against the psychological hazards of living among generally decent Trump folk like Anne has been humor mostly. But stories like hers are tragic, not funny, and have many victims. When the damage done by enablers like Mike Lee is discussed or written about, it's almost always understated by multiples. There are no statistics that cover what has happened to Anne and millions like her, and the even greater number of people who love and grieve the Annes of the world.
I'm just curious why you say that your mother in law is smart? It doesn't sound as if she has any curiosity about what's going on out in the real world.
She’s been an avid reader all her life. No college education, but she engages a lot of complex issues on a college level. Deeply curious, or at least used to be. Loves to solve puzzles. She’d give you the shirt off her back.
That’s when I really grew worried about MAGA. Anne has smarts and character. But MAGA appeals to something deeply fearful inside her that I don’t think she can articulate. Which is a pretty common human thing when it comes to deep-seated fears. Not an IQ issue at all. It’s an EQ one
Proud NAFO fella here. Trolling Mike Lee is too easy. We spend a lot more of our energy donating money and time to volunteer organizations that support Ukrainian troops with off-road vehicles and medical supplies, and with humanitarian aid to Ukrainian civilians. And we fight the more pernicious online propaganda coming from Russian bot farms and stooges. Including former Trump natsec aid Elbridge Colby, who just in the last 24 hours amplified the Lee/Dotcom conversation.
Bulwark fans who care about traditional engaged foreign policy should enjoy being a member of the NAFO pack too.
So happy to see you here, NAFO fellas! As I recall, the memes were first created spontaneously by Ukrainians as an expression of resistance soon after the Russian invasion. The fella was stolen by Russian soldiers from a zoo in Ukraine, and Ukrainians stole him back. The fella memes took off after that. The St. Javelin memes appeared around the same time, if my memory is correct. The Ukrainians are the most creative fighters on the planet. We must support them with whatever it takes, for as long as it takes. Slava Ukrainii!
NAFO fella here. If you'd like to help counter disinformation and ensure that Ukrainian voices are heard online, please join us. We also raise funds for humanitarian and military aid to Ukraine.
It's not "low information voters" who are the problem, it's the "wrong information voters". Starting with Rush Limbaugh in 1989, the disinformation industry has learned that 35% and more of Americans are looking for "news" that fits their world view, true or not. Just like Joseph Goebbels in the 1930's, the American disinformation industry has weaponized the First Amendment for huge profits. Democracy fans need to put on their big boy pants and work on cures for this cancer. Unrestricted free speech wasn't created by the founders as an eventual poison pill that democracy must swallow.
I see in some people that being told "this is the thing that no one else will tell you" or "not many people know this but we'll tell you because you're smart enough to understand" or "truth that the Deep State or MSM won't tell you." It greatly appeals to their need to be smarter than anyone else. It's an appeal to their vanity, not necessarily a way to ping confirmation bias.
Back in the late 50's/early 60's there were movies advertised as featuring "Smell-o-Vision" during which aromas/odors would be dispersed throughout the theater by the ventilation system. I'm surprised no one has come forth with an internet version of it. If someone does claim to have developed it for one the (a)social media platforms, Mike Lee would probably be on it like stink on sh*t.
The last section is scary as hell. Let's just hope these low-info people (loved the homeopathy reference) end up feeling too bothered to vote in this election cycle.
One suggestion for the press: The next time any reporter asks a random person for their thoughts on current issues (economy, crime, immigration, etc), they should ask this at the very end (not up front): Have you voted in the last 3 non-primary elections in which you were eligible to vote? If the answer is No, the reporter should tell the respondent to the shut the fork up and inform them that their responses will not be accounted for in the story they're writing. A voter turnout in the 60--70% range is shameful for us as a country... it ought to be closer to 95% given the availability of early & mail-in voting.
Not sure we want more low-info voters showing up, though, do we? Who's to say that the missing voters are going to make things better for those desiring sanity in our politics?
I understand your point completely, but that is the price paid for a true democracy. OK, we don't have to round the LIVs up and get them to the ballot box on time, but we should not stand in their way, either.
Low-information voters back before Obama’s election in 2008 were considered voters that consume very little politics so they don’t know much. Since the rise of Fox News following 2008 we misuse the term “low information voters”. Instead, a majority of the Republican base has become high misinformation voters not low information voters. They eat up conspiracy theories like birtherism or pizza gate while simultaneously believing whatever right wing media tells them about more salient political/ economic issues.
This started long before Donald Trump and one of the most dishonest lines we hear from “traditional conservatives” is that it was because of Donald Trump. The inmates started running the asylum at least 8 years before Trump ever got elected President.
I called them "negative information voters" in my post, but "misinformation voters" fits just as well. But it's not the lack of information. It's their inability to think clearly that stuns me. I got into a "discussion" with my mechanic about how the Az gubernatorial election was stolen because the bad guys stole a bunch of ballots and filled them out for Hobbs. I asked him why if that was true how come none of the people hot to vote for Lake who didn't get a ballot didn't complain about not getting one. And if they had tried to vote in person they would have found out that they had already voted. The answer - "you don't know that didn't happen". You can't win with some people.
I have been a member of NAFO since the beginning, fundraising for Ukraine and fighting Russian disinformation online through the use of humor and memes. Mike Lee did not appreciate being challenged when posting 'articles' from the Russian propagandists at Grayzone, and the fact that NAFO has literally melted his brain is one of our finest achievements.
He was never able to grasp that if you are arguing with a bunch of ridiculous cartoon dogs on Twitter, you look insane and have already lost.
Punchbowl smunchbowl...Joe Perticone is the congressional reporter Bulwark readers need, if not the one we deserve (apologies for the gratuitous Dark Knight reference).
I read the whole New Yorker article. Dear Gods. It reminds me of what Stephen King said "Fox news did to our parents what our parents were afraid video games would do to us." Replace 'Fox' with the right wing media ecosystem and that's more true than ever. Reality is bad enough without creating a personalized dystopia for yourself.
Mike Lee is the worst of the worst. At least people like Lauren Boebert & MTG have the guts to preach crazy 24/7.
Mike Lee & Chip Roy tried to help overturn the election in secret not wanting to vote to overturn it in the joint session. They are disgusting people that pretended they were voting to uphold the elections all while working in secret to placate and help Trump.
Utah voter here. There’s only one Mike Lee. And I’ll go ahead and speak for the legions who voted against him and tried to eject him from the Senate: Eff Mike Lee, that freaking seditionist.
Sarah, do you think he believes the shit he posts?
I don't know that it matters -- it speaks poorly of him one way or the other.
In this as in most things the "Rule of Goats" applys
❤️
In 2015, my mother in law was really excited about Trump. I hit her with what I was SURE would cause her to recoil: Trump’s insistence that we should kill the families of terrorists, including innocent women and children. “Yes,” she replied about blinking an eye, “it’s them or us.”
Anne’s smart, and she’s a committed Christian. Teaches Sunday school. Voted for Obama. Not a wacko. But her half-blind, half-deaf diabetic husband listened to Fox News and Cops 12 hours a day on full volume. And she’s been quietly MAGA for a decade now. Just retreats in any situation where she might have to explain herself or defend him, but she “doesn’t know what to believe anymore,” so she just defaults to whatever the people who look like her and appear to share her values say. Which, for reasons I can’t understand, somehow doesn’t include the two people she loves most in the world, her sister and daughter. I think Hannah Arendt had something to say about that sort of thing, the ideal subject of totalitarian rule.
She’s just as wacko, but you’d never know it from her appearance or demeanor.
Thanks for describing my mother, uncle and many more family members. :(
I completely empathize with you. It's really sad losing our loved ones to very basic fear instincts being stoked by people who are actively ginning up the things they claim to "be against".
My mother is college educated, first woman in her family to have an advanced degree. She always was kind to my friends. I grew up in Missouri. When I was in high school, a friend of mine came out as gay. His conservative and religious parents disowned him. My mom put him up in our house, and mediated with his parents. My mom used to be upset about "old dudes whose dicks don't work" telling women about their bodily autonomy.
Now - she's talking about how all abortions are awful, how women abuse it to avoid responsibility, how we're being invaded, the world is on fire...and Trump is the guy to stop it.
No amount of appealing to her logic or knowledge will help. I've tried emotional appeals, she just gets defensive. She is retired, is a type 1 diabetic (well managed her whole life but it's getting worse), she isn't rich, her friends are dying, and after my grandfather died her siblings went full "Knives Out" and were total vultures over his inheritance - she got screwed over in the process.
The world is a scary place and she is deeply resentful. She did what she was told to do and never fully achieved what was promised. In these situations people either A) work to fix the underlying issue or B) look to tear everyone else down to feel better.
My mother chose B.
My approach, as sad as it is, is just to call out her inability to self reflect, how the values she instilled in me are opposed to Trump / MAGA and calling lies blatant lies.
So sorry.
I've felt for a long time that shows like cops and Jerry Springer - that show the worst side of people - is also part of the indoctrination process. I've seen perfectly decent people- Christians all - decide to "other" the people they see on TV based on those shows.
I appreciate the even-handed way you describe this sad situation. My main defense against the psychological hazards of living among generally decent Trump folk like Anne has been humor mostly. But stories like hers are tragic, not funny, and have many victims. When the damage done by enablers like Mike Lee is discussed or written about, it's almost always understated by multiples. There are no statistics that cover what has happened to Anne and millions like her, and the even greater number of people who love and grieve the Annes of the world.
My condolensces.
"it’s them or us.” Sounds just like a committed Christian - rather like the Crusades, circa 1200 AD.
I'm just curious why you say that your mother in law is smart? It doesn't sound as if she has any curiosity about what's going on out in the real world.
She’s been an avid reader all her life. No college education, but she engages a lot of complex issues on a college level. Deeply curious, or at least used to be. Loves to solve puzzles. She’d give you the shirt off her back.
That’s when I really grew worried about MAGA. Anne has smarts and character. But MAGA appeals to something deeply fearful inside her that I don’t think she can articulate. Which is a pretty common human thing when it comes to deep-seated fears. Not an IQ issue at all. It’s an EQ one
Proud NAFO fella here. Trolling Mike Lee is too easy. We spend a lot more of our energy donating money and time to volunteer organizations that support Ukrainian troops with off-road vehicles and medical supplies, and with humanitarian aid to Ukrainian civilians. And we fight the more pernicious online propaganda coming from Russian bot farms and stooges. Including former Trump natsec aid Elbridge Colby, who just in the last 24 hours amplified the Lee/Dotcom conversation.
Bulwark fans who care about traditional engaged foreign policy should enjoy being a member of the NAFO pack too.
There are dozens of us!
Unlike still-true Never Trump conservatives, NAFO is a tribe I belong to that actually continues to GROW!
Never underestimate the power of cute dogs connected to a good cause on the Internet (cute cats too!)
So happy to see you here, NAFO fellas! As I recall, the memes were first created spontaneously by Ukrainians as an expression of resistance soon after the Russian invasion. The fella was stolen by Russian soldiers from a zoo in Ukraine, and Ukrainians stole him back. The fella memes took off after that. The St. Javelin memes appeared around the same time, if my memory is correct. The Ukrainians are the most creative fighters on the planet. We must support them with whatever it takes, for as long as it takes. Slava Ukrainii!
NAFO fella here. If you'd like to help counter disinformation and ensure that Ukrainian voices are heard online, please join us. We also raise funds for humanitarian and military aid to Ukraine.
Hello, fellow Fella!
Congrats on melting Mike Lee's brain. Have you received your check from the CIA yet?
I am still waiting on my scheduled delivery of gold bars from Langley. Is there a new dead drop for submitting invoices? Could use some help.
Nothing like getting the latest headlines - from the Bible. She'll vote for Trump being the good Christian he is.
Seriously. She should know that the only credible news source is Nostradamus.
Perhaps she's referring to this particular edition...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_News_Bible
I'm not one to knock anyone's religious beliefs, but the Bible as a source of news? Sheesh.
or maybe the Lee Greenwood version promoted and sold by Trumpster
Definitely the prize-winning comment in the bunch, breathtaking in its stupidity.
and about 9 commandments he has broken :)
Sometimes I have to fight off the feeling that normalcy and critical thinking are doomed in this country.
It's not "low information voters" who are the problem, it's the "wrong information voters". Starting with Rush Limbaugh in 1989, the disinformation industry has learned that 35% and more of Americans are looking for "news" that fits their world view, true or not. Just like Joseph Goebbels in the 1930's, the American disinformation industry has weaponized the First Amendment for huge profits. Democracy fans need to put on their big boy pants and work on cures for this cancer. Unrestricted free speech wasn't created by the founders as an eventual poison pill that democracy must swallow.
I see in some people that being told "this is the thing that no one else will tell you" or "not many people know this but we'll tell you because you're smart enough to understand" or "truth that the Deep State or MSM won't tell you." It greatly appeals to their need to be smarter than anyone else. It's an appeal to their vanity, not necessarily a way to ping confirmation bias.
And tfg uses all those lines, successfully I might add.
Regarding the Jekyll/Hyde aspect of Sen. Lee's behavior, in my experience, alcohol consumption after work and into the evening often explains a lot.
Back in the late 50's/early 60's there were movies advertised as featuring "Smell-o-Vision" during which aromas/odors would be dispersed throughout the theater by the ventilation system. I'm surprised no one has come forth with an internet version of it. If someone does claim to have developed it for one the (a)social media platforms, Mike Lee would probably be on it like stink on sh*t.
The last section is scary as hell. Let's just hope these low-info people (loved the homeopathy reference) end up feeling too bothered to vote in this election cycle.
One suggestion for the press: The next time any reporter asks a random person for their thoughts on current issues (economy, crime, immigration, etc), they should ask this at the very end (not up front): Have you voted in the last 3 non-primary elections in which you were eligible to vote? If the answer is No, the reporter should tell the respondent to the shut the fork up and inform them that their responses will not be accounted for in the story they're writing. A voter turnout in the 60--70% range is shameful for us as a country... it ought to be closer to 95% given the availability of early & mail-in voting.
Not sure we want more low-info voters showing up, though, do we? Who's to say that the missing voters are going to make things better for those desiring sanity in our politics?
I understand your point completely, but that is the price paid for a true democracy. OK, we don't have to round the LIVs up and get them to the ballot box on time, but we should not stand in their way, either.
Okay, you win....only HALF the damn country is sick.
Wrong post?
Yup. Meant for your post about the country as a whole just being sick in patches.
OK, thanks for the clarification. S(tuff) happens😉.
Low-information voters back before Obama’s election in 2008 were considered voters that consume very little politics so they don’t know much. Since the rise of Fox News following 2008 we misuse the term “low information voters”. Instead, a majority of the Republican base has become high misinformation voters not low information voters. They eat up conspiracy theories like birtherism or pizza gate while simultaneously believing whatever right wing media tells them about more salient political/ economic issues.
This started long before Donald Trump and one of the most dishonest lines we hear from “traditional conservatives” is that it was because of Donald Trump. The inmates started running the asylum at least 8 years before Trump ever got elected President.
I called them "negative information voters" in my post, but "misinformation voters" fits just as well. But it's not the lack of information. It's their inability to think clearly that stuns me. I got into a "discussion" with my mechanic about how the Az gubernatorial election was stolen because the bad guys stole a bunch of ballots and filled them out for Hobbs. I asked him why if that was true how come none of the people hot to vote for Lake who didn't get a ballot didn't complain about not getting one. And if they had tried to vote in person they would have found out that they had already voted. The answer - "you don't know that didn't happen". You can't win with some people.
I have been a member of NAFO since the beginning, fundraising for Ukraine and fighting Russian disinformation online through the use of humor and memes. Mike Lee did not appreciate being challenged when posting 'articles' from the Russian propagandists at Grayzone, and the fact that NAFO has literally melted his brain is one of our finest achievements.
He was never able to grasp that if you are arguing with a bunch of ridiculous cartoon dogs on Twitter, you look insane and have already lost.
Paraphrasing George Carlin: "Think of how stupid the average person is and remember that half of the people are even stupider."
Punchbowl smunchbowl...Joe Perticone is the congressional reporter Bulwark readers need, if not the one we deserve (apologies for the gratuitous Dark Knight reference).
We are living in a very sick country.
We can thank right-wing radio shows and the Internet for that.
I think it has very sick patches, but it is not, as a whole, "sick" as you apparently mean it.
I beg to differ. The propaganda and the disinformation and the cult…
Given, they exist, but that is still not the entire country, IMHO. If it were, OCF would be miles ahead of Kamala in the polls....
I read the whole New Yorker article. Dear Gods. It reminds me of what Stephen King said "Fox news did to our parents what our parents were afraid video games would do to us." Replace 'Fox' with the right wing media ecosystem and that's more true than ever. Reality is bad enough without creating a personalized dystopia for yourself.
Mike Lee is the worst of the worst. At least people like Lauren Boebert & MTG have the guts to preach crazy 24/7.
Mike Lee & Chip Roy tried to help overturn the election in secret not wanting to vote to overturn it in the joint session. They are disgusting people that pretended they were voting to uphold the elections all while working in secret to placate and help Trump.