*Democracy as we’ve known it our entire lives and want to leave for our children, grandchildren and future generations, or an authoritarian regime that pals around with Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Hungary and other dictatorships
*The Rule of Law or a Justice system that protects the corrupt and…
*Democracy as we’ve known it our entire lives and want to leave for our children, grandchildren and future generations, or an authoritarian regime that pals around with Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Hungary and other dictatorships
*The Rule of Law or a Justice system that protects the corrupt and punishes its enemies
*Sanity or Whack-A-Doodle Crazy
*Civility or Armed Chaos
It comes down to a Tale of Two Parties.
It is delusional to hope anymore that the Republican Party will stand up for the principles our nation was founded upon, or to live up to the oaths they took to protect and defend our Constitution from enemies, both foreign and domestic. They have become the domestic enemy.
And please - let’s not make the same mistake we’ve always made, thinking this time, surely, Jack Smith, Fani Willis, Alvin Bragg, … is going to save us. WE have to save what we cherish most.
VOTE as if EVERYTHING depends upon it – because it does. And if you can find a way to bring others to the polls, who might otherwise not have the means, then do so. STAND UP LIKE A PATRIOT. The clock is still ticking.
Yes to both. But what you keep missing about each of them is that it motivated people to vote even more. No one is saying everything is perfect, but until we take majorities that allow us to legislate voting rights and other rights, we won't have a country to save.
To my many MAGA friends, I am just going to say that Trump let them down. They were unbelievable loyal to him and then he does this incredibly reckless, dangerous and stupid thing. I am not going to say I told you so, I am going to try and empathize with their embarrassment and frustration.
And then if Trump loses the nomination, or (God help us if he wins the nomination) Trump loses the general election....then will I remind them that they were morons.
If they are anything like my MAGA brother-in-law, it's -and I really hate to have to say this- a waste of time, breath and emotional effort. We are both veterans: he, a "Vietnam-era" vet (drafted, he never left the states, spent his "tour" in D.C. wearing civilian attire as a clerk-typist at the Pentagon, partying with JAG officers after work); I enlisted, received 15 months of medical training and spent 9 months in a bunkered quonset hut forwadr aid station (think M*A*S*H but without the nurses) 15 km from Cambodia before we re-deployed back to a large base near Saigon. There are times I feel (more like, I know) that my disgust with Trump puts me in the minority of Nam survivors. I have the black baseball cap with the embroidery and miniatures of my medals pinned to it, but I rarely ever wear it, because I don't want anyone to reflexively assume that, because I'm a vet, that I support that asshole. You do what you are most comfortable with; I chose to withdraw from having any contact with my B-I-L at all, skipping holiday get togethers, funerals, etc. It's not easy, but it is still less stressful than trying to "convert" him.
GlenD and Jeff, thank you both for your service. My son enlisted in the Navy, in the tradition of my fathers, uncles, cousins, and brothers-in-law, and TFG’s betrayal of the same oath to preserve, protect, and defend that he took is one of the main things that roils him.
Thank you for your service. That didn't sound fun at all.
I feel the same way as you...I really hope that people don't assume I'm MAGA because I served.
What boils my blood...is the fact that I don't like him BECAUSE I served and many of things he's said that are not aligned with courage, honor and commitment.
Bomb them with facts and evidence. Keep them coming likes unstoppable waves rolling in from the ocean. At some point opinion must yield to truth and they will grow fatigued with continuing to take positions that simply are untenable when confronted with a higher power. It can be a long, time-consuming, laborious process. But usually that's the surest pathway to success. Facts first and always.
One of my son’s is a trumpkin. We love him anyways. The other day on the family text line, the family got into it about drag shows. Everyone against him. No matter what evidence was presented, he toed the far right line, even after admitting he has been to drag shows and enjoyed them. I was with him for some of them, as were some of the rest of the family. Nope, I no longer try to change his mind, because it can’t be changed. By the way, the entire family are veterans, and he is incredibly intelligent and a college educated professional.
What's funny about the drag show argument is that people have been putting on heavy make-up, dancing and dressing up flamboyantly for years and entertaining people. They're called clowns.
This is the kind of thing I think can work. Don't try to get into a debate about Trump vs. Biden or anything. Just go with how Trump isn't acceptable to you. Use irrefutable reasons and then only go so far as to ruling Trump out.
Carolyn, given your proposed audience, I think you need to say "a proven liar in a court of law" and refer to the E. Jean Carroll case if challenged, although even that may not sink in to the Koolaid drinking MAGA front.
My MAGA friend is mostly MAGA, though she does not mention QANON stuff to me, and she took Covid very seriously while still believing in Deep State & Fauci as bad guy. She cares for adults that need care but are not yet in nursing homes, and she was responsible for getting everybody vaccinated that wanted it.
We have debated a lot since 2020, but we back off once emotions kick in. In 2021 our talks included vaccine safety & side effects, and positions of our various family members, who got what version, how many had a hard time after the shot, etc. In the fall of 2021, after everybody else was done, she told me she got vaccinated. I asked why. She responded "because I wanted to be part of the solution."
I don't think she knew it, but that was my answer months earlier when she I asked why I had gotten mine. It is not the only thing I said, I talked alot about science and researchers and how we owe so much of our quality of living to people that worked hard on tiny pieces of science and how it's our responsibility to utilize the great things that have been built upon throughout history. But what she remembered was the simple sentence. She may not have gotten vaccinated but for that one part that stuck with her.
Here's my take...because I used to be GOP as late as 2017....
I don't think you can argue them into changing, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't defend the truth. Try not to burn the relationship due to this disagreement. Say things like "maybe some day you'll realize that I had some points". Sort of future orient things and leave it at that.
Not very satisfying but I think it's important that they hear your side of things, allow them room for their own opinion (no matter how absurd) but clearly let them know you have your own opinion that's different than theirs.
I act like I know what I'm doing here...I don't and I have friends and relatives that are MAGAs too. This was simply based on what worked for me...and that was having some room to make my own decision and remembering conversations with my very liberal sister.
Several strategies: use scenarios, such as "I am sure the Chinese and Russian governments have some type of agent who are already members of Mar-a-Lago (which has a big fee, but probably not a thorough background check." Any of them could have gone into the Lake Room bathroom, locked the door, and gone through the boxes. They could have taken pictures or even removed papers and taken them with them, as I'm sure Mar-a-Lago employees were not patting down members upon departure."
Or: be future oriented about global challenges requiring global cooperation. "Do you really think the air attack on Mexican sovereign territory without permission, even if it were on people said to be drug lords, would improve US security?" "I don't believe that the US has the power to dictate events in Ukraine. I don't believe Trump could end the conflict in one day, do you?"
Or, just be positive about Biden's achievements: "I'm glad the economy has improved so much under Biden. Look at these numbers!" "I'm glad the border situation has improved. I believe it could improve further with some action on the legislative front."
RE: Chinese and Russian agents as members of Mar-a-Lago, it's also important that we maintain it's not sufficient to say, "well we have no proof that anyone *did* access the documents." 1) We don't know what the intelligence community has assessed or will assess in the future, nor can we be sure that we will ever learn of it (that's how secrets work!). 2) It's that they *could* have done so that matters. We shouldn't have to wait until Trump causes literal damage, death, and destruction to US and/or allied forces to say what he did was wrong. It was wrong simply because it could have happened.
Maybe get a copy of the indictment and as them to read it and give you their thoughts on the matter. You might also want to include news accounts that the FBI investigated the Jim Jordon allegation about Biden and determined years ago there was nothing to them. From what I read, many Trump supporters haven’t heard anything outside of Fox coverage.
A Tale of Two Choices:
*Truth or Lies
*Democracy as we’ve known it our entire lives and want to leave for our children, grandchildren and future generations, or an authoritarian regime that pals around with Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Hungary and other dictatorships
*The Rule of Law or a Justice system that protects the corrupt and punishes its enemies
*Sanity or Whack-A-Doodle Crazy
*Civility or Armed Chaos
It comes down to a Tale of Two Parties.
It is delusional to hope anymore that the Republican Party will stand up for the principles our nation was founded upon, or to live up to the oaths they took to protect and defend our Constitution from enemies, both foreign and domestic. They have become the domestic enemy.
And please - let’s not make the same mistake we’ve always made, thinking this time, surely, Jack Smith, Fani Willis, Alvin Bragg, … is going to save us. WE have to save what we cherish most.
VOTE as if EVERYTHING depends upon it – because it does. And if you can find a way to bring others to the polls, who might otherwise not have the means, then do so. STAND UP LIKE A PATRIOT. The clock is still ticking.
At this point, voting feels like an act of righteous rebellion. Maybe that paradigm would motivate young, first-time voters.
We didn't have Jim Crow and voter suppression?
Yes to both. But what you keep missing about each of them is that it motivated people to vote even more. No one is saying everything is perfect, but until we take majorities that allow us to legislate voting rights and other rights, we won't have a country to save.
But, will it do any good at this point to try to persuade my Trump relatives one more time about this? I'm tempted.
To my many MAGA friends, I am just going to say that Trump let them down. They were unbelievable loyal to him and then he does this incredibly reckless, dangerous and stupid thing. I am not going to say I told you so, I am going to try and empathize with their embarrassment and frustration.
And then if Trump loses the nomination, or (God help us if he wins the nomination) Trump loses the general election....then will I remind them that they were morons.
If they are anything like my MAGA brother-in-law, it's -and I really hate to have to say this- a waste of time, breath and emotional effort. We are both veterans: he, a "Vietnam-era" vet (drafted, he never left the states, spent his "tour" in D.C. wearing civilian attire as a clerk-typist at the Pentagon, partying with JAG officers after work); I enlisted, received 15 months of medical training and spent 9 months in a bunkered quonset hut forwadr aid station (think M*A*S*H but without the nurses) 15 km from Cambodia before we re-deployed back to a large base near Saigon. There are times I feel (more like, I know) that my disgust with Trump puts me in the minority of Nam survivors. I have the black baseball cap with the embroidery and miniatures of my medals pinned to it, but I rarely ever wear it, because I don't want anyone to reflexively assume that, because I'm a vet, that I support that asshole. You do what you are most comfortable with; I chose to withdraw from having any contact with my B-I-L at all, skipping holiday get togethers, funerals, etc. It's not easy, but it is still less stressful than trying to "convert" him.
GlenD and Jeff, thank you both for your service. My son enlisted in the Navy, in the tradition of my fathers, uncles, cousins, and brothers-in-law, and TFG’s betrayal of the same oath to preserve, protect, and defend that he took is one of the main things that roils him.
Father, singular. Oops!
Thank you for your service. That didn't sound fun at all.
I feel the same way as you...I really hope that people don't assume I'm MAGA because I served.
What boils my blood...is the fact that I don't like him BECAUSE I served and many of things he's said that are not aligned with courage, honor and commitment.
Amen, Jeff, and thanks to you, too. Glen
Bomb them with facts and evidence. Keep them coming likes unstoppable waves rolling in from the ocean. At some point opinion must yield to truth and they will grow fatigued with continuing to take positions that simply are untenable when confronted with a higher power. It can be a long, time-consuming, laborious process. But usually that's the surest pathway to success. Facts first and always.
One of my son’s is a trumpkin. We love him anyways. The other day on the family text line, the family got into it about drag shows. Everyone against him. No matter what evidence was presented, he toed the far right line, even after admitting he has been to drag shows and enjoyed them. I was with him for some of them, as were some of the rest of the family. Nope, I no longer try to change his mind, because it can’t be changed. By the way, the entire family are veterans, and he is incredibly intelligent and a college educated professional.
What's funny about the drag show argument is that people have been putting on heavy make-up, dancing and dressing up flamboyantly for years and entertaining people. They're called clowns.
As a child and to this day I find clowns far more terrifying than drag queens.
It’s especially funny in the South, where 50 years ago that was called a “womanless beauty review”, held frequently in rural towns.
Nobody said defending democracy and national security was easy.
I would keep it to short declarations said in their presence.
"You know that guy thought Tienamen Square was cool."
"I just can't vote for a liar."
This is the kind of thing I think can work. Don't try to get into a debate about Trump vs. Biden or anything. Just go with how Trump isn't acceptable to you. Use irrefutable reasons and then only go so far as to ruling Trump out.
Carolyn, given your proposed audience, I think you need to say "a proven liar in a court of law" and refer to the E. Jean Carroll case if challenged, although even that may not sink in to the Koolaid drinking MAGA front.
Quick story of how I got to this opinion...
My MAGA friend is mostly MAGA, though she does not mention QANON stuff to me, and she took Covid very seriously while still believing in Deep State & Fauci as bad guy. She cares for adults that need care but are not yet in nursing homes, and she was responsible for getting everybody vaccinated that wanted it.
We have debated a lot since 2020, but we back off once emotions kick in. In 2021 our talks included vaccine safety & side effects, and positions of our various family members, who got what version, how many had a hard time after the shot, etc. In the fall of 2021, after everybody else was done, she told me she got vaccinated. I asked why. She responded "because I wanted to be part of the solution."
I don't think she knew it, but that was my answer months earlier when she I asked why I had gotten mine. It is not the only thing I said, I talked alot about science and researchers and how we owe so much of our quality of living to people that worked hard on tiny pieces of science and how it's our responsibility to utilize the great things that have been built upon throughout history. But what she remembered was the simple sentence. She may not have gotten vaccinated but for that one part that stuck with her.
Here's my take...because I used to be GOP as late as 2017....
I don't think you can argue them into changing, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't defend the truth. Try not to burn the relationship due to this disagreement. Say things like "maybe some day you'll realize that I had some points". Sort of future orient things and leave it at that.
Not very satisfying but I think it's important that they hear your side of things, allow them room for their own opinion (no matter how absurd) but clearly let them know you have your own opinion that's different than theirs.
I act like I know what I'm doing here...I don't and I have friends and relatives that are MAGAs too. This was simply based on what worked for me...and that was having some room to make my own decision and remembering conversations with my very liberal sister.
Several strategies: use scenarios, such as "I am sure the Chinese and Russian governments have some type of agent who are already members of Mar-a-Lago (which has a big fee, but probably not a thorough background check." Any of them could have gone into the Lake Room bathroom, locked the door, and gone through the boxes. They could have taken pictures or even removed papers and taken them with them, as I'm sure Mar-a-Lago employees were not patting down members upon departure."
Or: be future oriented about global challenges requiring global cooperation. "Do you really think the air attack on Mexican sovereign territory without permission, even if it were on people said to be drug lords, would improve US security?" "I don't believe that the US has the power to dictate events in Ukraine. I don't believe Trump could end the conflict in one day, do you?"
Or, just be positive about Biden's achievements: "I'm glad the economy has improved so much under Biden. Look at these numbers!" "I'm glad the border situation has improved. I believe it could improve further with some action on the legislative front."
RE: Chinese and Russian agents as members of Mar-a-Lago, it's also important that we maintain it's not sufficient to say, "well we have no proof that anyone *did* access the documents." 1) We don't know what the intelligence community has assessed or will assess in the future, nor can we be sure that we will ever learn of it (that's how secrets work!). 2) It's that they *could* have done so that matters. We shouldn't have to wait until Trump causes literal damage, death, and destruction to US and/or allied forces to say what he did was wrong. It was wrong simply because it could have happened.
Exactly, and how we treat anyone else who steals government and military secrets.
Maybe get a copy of the indictment and as them to read it and give you their thoughts on the matter. You might also want to include news accounts that the FBI investigated the Jim Jordon allegation about Biden and determined years ago there was nothing to them. From what I read, many Trump supporters haven’t heard anything outside of Fox coverage.