This post is being written on May 6 concerning the college campus protest and chaos about Gaza.
Glad to see President Biden coming out, defending right to pre-speech but talking about what it does not include These encampments have persons that are not students taking advantage of the situation Fueling this chaos and possibly radicalizing some of these students.
President Biden should win everything is sorted out and determined who was actually students there and who was not should move to Deport any student that was in this country on a student visa. Free speech and the right to protest does not include taking over private property, Harassing other students, Creating encampments and occupying buildings on a private university . Of course somebody else was behind all of this. The tents, the signage, the chants And the boldness to occupy are all indicators.
President Biden has the power to deport those students that are here on student visas
Sigh. You do realize that intifada simply means "rebellion?" It has been around as a political term since 1952 and involved internal strife in Iraq. Out of 24 uses listed by Wikipedia, 5 involve Palestinians and Israel. It's connotation for "destroy Israel" is not by any means universal.
One can agree that the Palestinians now and in the past have had plenty of reasons to dislike Israeli policies and ACTS against them without approving Hamas's METHODS of retaliation. Being pro Palestinian is NOT being pro Hamas, much less pro-terrorist.
I do wish every single student arrested in these protests were asked "do you support a two state solution" and "do you think that the Israeli government's reaction has gone over the top" and "do you think the Israeli government's actions are the fault of all Jews?"
And also ask any non-students similarly arrested.
The results very well may show that not a whole lot of those protesting were supporters of anything like the intifada that commentators are claiming they support--destruction of Israel. And some of the counter protestors may well show opinions that "from the River to the Sea" is a righteous phrase for the idea of the ambitions of Bibi's reactionaries in his cabinet and party.
Yes, I deplore violence in a protest. But yelling isn't violence. Camping isn't violence. Destruction of buildings is, and I deplore that action while also understanding the motives behind it.
As far as I can tell there actually hasn't been an investigation into antisemitic incidents reported nor any concrete examples of why it "isn't safe" to be on a campus when there ARE protests going any more then there are when the campus is just chugging along doing its usual thing. There are rabble rousers on both sides in this mess, and some of them are just COMMENTING on the protests, not part of them. And have there been Islamophobic instances on campus, either now or in the past? Curious minds want to know.
So while I deplore violence--and any real hate speech that violates the campus code against ANYONE--I also deplore the rush to judgment that is going on in so many stories and opinions about what is happening. It is hard to find instances of PEACEFUL protests on the subject being broadcast widely, though peaceful protests are indeed going on and you can find them if you look.
Antisemitism is on the rise. So is racism, religious intolerance, cultural intolerance, Islamophobia, and so much other hateful stuff Why? Ask trump, who has given so many people permission to voice prejudices they have have clearly had all along, where before a culture of basic civility had "stifled" that expression in public.
However, there is something that could be done that would enable the center to hold. Just change the voting system.
No how far left a voter is, they would prefer center over far right, and vice versa for right wing voters for the center over the far left. However, the current system ignores that preference because none of rate center first. IRV likewise ignores that preference because it would blithely eliminate the center first leaving far left and far right as the last two standing.
What's needed is is system which sets up a pairwise contest between all candidates so that if more voters prefer center over far right than the reverse and more voters prefer center over far left than the reverse, then center would win. While bringing that effect to the presidency would require national adoption of such a system, affecting Congress could be done with just a few states doing so. If the margin of power for the majority party consists of representatives elected by such a system, then the center would control what is able to pass in Congress.
"No, neither of these developments is of world-historical significance. But the second is emblematic of the fact that American conservatism has descended into Trumpism, and that Trumpism is closer to fascism than one might have thought. And the first suggests that the far Left is just as bad as people like me always thought it was."
But you DIDN'T think the GOP was headed in the wrong direction till Trump. The far left is just as far from actual power as it's ever been, and the far right WISHES it could have the Neocon days back again.
To put it plainer, one of these things is a firecracker. Hold it and lose some fingers. The other is a bomb. Yeah, the firecracker bit is bad, but it is no way comparable to the bomb. The students are newsworthy sure, but as bad as you always thought it was? Your record in estimating that is poor.
Both parties make an exercise of using the fringe of the other party as their example of the dangers that luck in their respective governing philosophies. But only one has ever come CLOSE to reality. When offered Bernie and those who are on the edge of the left the Democrats said no. The current president ran explicitly against that left hand turn.
There are conservative Democrats. Are there liberal Republicans? Let us not take our eye off of the ball because a minority of college students in a minority of colleges have decided that they have the answer to a conflict that has its genesis in pre history.
I might be a minority of one, but all this coverage and over-reaction to the student protests are making things worse, not better.
Completely blown out of proportion and wild assumptions about who and what is happening, with, as usual, the worst actors being used as examples of the whole. I get the feeling some would not be happy until we have another Kent State.
Stop stirring the pot and let the schools deal with it without outside political pressure.
This is starting to look like the Iraq War, where only one viewpoint is allowed and all others must be punished.
I agree, there is a sense of piling on. They’re kids and they think they’re defending an underdog. Israel has over reacted and it will probably get worse, the kids aren’t wrong. But the tents and the flags are too much; breaking into buildings is too much. Luckily my kids have graduated! I wouldn’t want to be paying tuition at Columbia with this rumpus going on.
The school needs to deal seriously with any student who blames people who happen to be Jewish for whatever is going on in Palestine. It is the same stupidity that motivated a couple of laid-off auto workers to murder a Chinese person back in the 80s in retaliation because they believed they lost their jobs because of increased Japanese imports.
They can blame us. That protected speech. What they can’t do is threaten or harass us, or prevent our kids from getting on campus or to their classes, or touch us.
“Rave reviews, low turnout”? It was a pilot program and not available nationwide. They wanted 100,000 users, got over 140,000 and the reviews are great. Was that your take on the WaPost story? If so, bad take.
Good lord with the both-sides stuff William.... Trying to elevate college protests to the level of an anti-democratic political party literally bent on overthrowing our democracy is as lame as it gets... I'm about done given this the time of day.... on one side - (mostly) upset college kids on the other an aspiring autocratic with millions of followers seemingly ready to commit to political violence if they lose again.... gimme a break...
I want to comment on Kristi Noem shooting her dog. First no dog is untatrainable. If she didn't like her 14 mo dog, she should have sent him back to the breeder, sent him to a dog rescue or give him to some kind person. Instead she took a dog, who was probably at the age of a 10 year old human and shot him. Then she shot a goat because it smelled and wounded him, went back inside to get more ammo and finish him off. This is NOT the behavior of no nonsense farmer or a realistic person who makes hard decisions. That's not why people now hate her. Killing and injuring animals is the sighn of a budding sociopath. It's the sadism and cruelty that people are angry about. And her pride in not caring about killing a puppy or goat. Her caveat that some won't like what she did but it was necessary, is not going to cut it.
Correct. His own anti-Semitism and his tolerance of worse from others are among the main reasons that Jeremy Corbin is no longer the Opposition Leader in Britain, or even a member of the Labour Party. Anti-Semitism is very well represented on both points of the Horseshoe.
It's just that I know a lot far left Jewish people and not so many on the right. My longest friend is both religiously conservative and observant (but fairly liberal politically) pro Israel and I have made donations to Israel in his name because it's important to him.
However there are quite a few liberal Jews who hate Hamas but don't approve of the bombing of civilians. Point being, it's complicated. And not all Jewish people think a like.
I don't think she is left wing because she is a observant
Orthodox Muslim. Isn't that by definition conservative? But politically she is a Democrat because the Republicans wouldn't accept her. They only want ultra conservative Christians
But I think it's like she is radical and so hangs with those younger congress people, and she represents a poor ethnic area, a woman wearing a hijab is really socially conservative.
I should have said that antisemites on the Left are just as antisemitic as those on the Right. And a lot of them are protesting.
I support Israel 100%, but I loathe Bibi. I am not alone. I am saddened by the loss of life but I understand that this is a war and the first rule of war is that innocents die. I would never join the protesters because I think they care less about the merits of the thing than getting attention.
Yes, your non-hatred is really showing. Most of these students are not anti-Semites. You can protest the war and not hate Israel. Because a few bad actors are in the mix, all the students at Columbia should just shut up because you don't like what they are protesting? This is what America staying America looks like.
That is a straw man. Students can protest all the want. They cannot assault Jewish classmates, break into buildings a la J6 or otherwise commit crimes. According to the footage, The problem is greater than "a few bad actors."
I find the campus protesters rather comical. I suppose if they represented a group with real political power I might feel differently.
They make demands and my question is "Okay, if they don't give you what you want, then what?" Will they set up camp and stay until they are 30? My own inclination would be to work around them and carry on life as normal. Their numbers are not sufficient.
I also think that the administrations should put their demands up for a referendum by the entire student body with the agreement that if their demands are supported by the majority then they will be taken up on an advisory basis. IF on the other hand the majority of the student body does not support their demands they will pack it up and move on.
Here in Florida they decided to go on a hunger strike which lasted 4 or 5 days before an organic veggie burger became irresistible. As I commented yesterday Palestinians and other Arabs rarely wore Keffiyeh but now they are the fashion du jour for the social justice jihadists of all ethnic types. Apparently this is the right kind of cultural appropriation.
To be honest I am so tired of all these popup protests that exist only because of the mimetic power of social media. It echoes the silliness of the "Occupy Movement."
I understand mass protests like the 2017 Women's March and the perennial March for Life which apparently hasn't heard of "the Dobbs" decision. I get the LGBTQ+ parades, the Civil Rights protests and marches, etc. They command attention because of their size.
But what are these protests/counter protests in front of the Supreme Court building or random campuses across the country, supposed to accomplish? Do the Justices know or care? Strictly speaking such things should not influence them at all.
Personally I see a direct connection between these and similar protests and January 6. There is some psychological need deeper than the causes they are supporting that needs to be projected into the world.
And don't ever forget that some of this is being driven from a Russian Bot Farm.
I cannot understand the hatred for protesters that so many of you on this site proclaim. Is this not America and exactly what you should want from young people who are fed up?
It isn't hatred. I would just like college students to go to class and learn. Extracurricular mob activities are not conducive to their personal and professional development.
I would also like them to analyze (with a professional perhaps) what it is exactly they are "fed up" with. Performative and ineffective political "activism" is often driven by an insecure ego and porous personal boundaries.
It is hatred and they are fed up with what they view as genocide. You don't have to agree with them, but a lot of serious people in the world do. And even if no one agrees with them, they still have every right to protest. Ridiculous armchair psychoanalysis is not needed here.
Well, no they should not go to Gaza. However they should protest without violating laws by assaulting others or breaking into buildings. It is too bad "performative" has become a negative buzzword.
It’s just a word. I don’t use buzzwords. They are performing, like trained seals, without any real understanding. Most will scatter when the semester ends.
More understanding would probably make them even more angry. Besides that a giant generalization. There is a Columbia student right here on the Bulwark whose comments show a good deal of understanding. By the way, nearly every protest stretching back as far as you want to go is "performative," because protesters are usually powerless to do anything besides protest and maybe write letters to the editor or congresspeople.
Putting extreme emotional labels (such as "hatred") on reasonably expressed objections to a practice you personally happen to approve of -- even after people have clearly told you that that is not what they are feeling -- is itself a form of "ridiculous armchair psychoanalysis."
It's a difficult issue on which people of intelligence and goodwill can easily disagree. Stop putting polarizing labels on it.
Ok let's call it "extreme disdain". Is that better? It's really something that this site is supposedly anti-Authoritarian, but people on the right just can't help themselves from gravitating toward it.
Criticism is not the same thing as hatred. Hatred is unhealthy; criticism and disagreement are healthy; that should not have to be said here.
Yes, this is America (of course) -- and no, this egotistical, intolerant, tainted-with-antisemitism performance is not what I do or should want from young people, or old people, or middle-aged people, who have legitimate political and moral concerns. (Whether they're "fed up" or not, I could give a rip; I've been fed up for 50 years and I'm still capable of taking care of myself without trampling on others' rights; so are most people who walk this planet.)
To simply accept this because people are young and "fed up" would be to lump every possible kind of protest carelessly together and assume that just because it's protest, it's OK. Precisely *because* this is America and I want it to stay America, I will not do that.
Bill, were you not on a college campus in 1969 -70? I was at the University of Illinois as a freshman. There were National Guard there, with live ammo. It was tense. I got arrested for protesting after curfew. I also attended the National Moratorium Against the War in DC. Reports of 500,000 strong there. Why are so many clutching their pearls now concerning some protests that are occurring. This is nothing. Young people, like I was, are optimistic, challenging authority, asking questions.... Maybe the question should be why has the Israeli/Palestinian war been going on as long as you and I have been alive?
Ed, I was on campus then, too. In fact, I was at Georgetown, so if you went to the Moratorium, there's a good chance that you were camping under my windows for at least one night.
I didn't participate in those demonstrations, either, because I thought that they were an oversimplification, but there was one enormous difference between those demonstrations and now: in 1969-70, nobody was calling for the annihilation of one of the sides. Today, anyone chanting "From the River to the Sea ..." or worse, shouting "We are Hamas!" definitely is cheering for Team Annihilation, and knows that or should know it.
Al, the ground swell against the War in Vietnam helped to stop that war. The youth movement was part of that. There has been an Israeli/Palestinian war for as long as we have been alive. It seems that it is no closer to a resolution now than when it started. Let's not only condemn Hamas. Can we not condemn the Zionists for not moving to a solution. There is no comparison between the military might of Israel and the Palestinians. Do you realize that the Zionists used the slogan "from the river to the sea" years ago, wanting to expel all Palestinians. This is certainly complicated, and more so because of the religious zealotry on both sides.
No, Ed, I'm afraid that we cannot join to "condemn the Zionists for not moving toward a solution", or agree on any other type of bothsidesism, unless you can come up with a plausible explanation for this timeline:
-- 1948 United Nations Partition Plan, accepted by "the Zionists", rejected by the Palestinian leadership in the name of the Palestinians;
-- 1979 Egypt-Israel peace negotiations offered the Palestinians autonomy, which would almost certainly have led to full independence. Rejected by the Palestinian leadership in the name of the Palestinians;
-- The Oslo agreements of the 1990s laid out a path for Palestinian independence, but the process was derailed by terrorism.
-- 2000, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered to create a Palestinian state in all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Rejected by the Palestinian leadership in the name of the Palestinians;
-- 2008, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert offered to withdraw from almost the entire West Bank and partition Jerusalem on a demographic basis. Rejected by the Palestinian leadership in the name of the Palestinians;
In the immortal words of Abba Eban, "The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. And I only mention without further description the anti-Semitic and pro-Nazi machinations of Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Palestinian leader, through the entire pre-World War II and immediate post-war period.
I don't think that it's possible any longer for the Israelis and Palestinians to live side by side in peace in the way that normal states, even hostile normal states, do, not for decades, anyway. I believe that what must happen after Hamas is utterly destroyed is for Israel to be required to remove all settlements from the West Bank (they should never have been permitted in the first place), and for Israel, basically behind the pre-1967 Lines of Control with some adjustments at Jerusalem, and a demilitarized but sovereign Palestine, consisting of the West Bank and Gaza, to live side by side with each open to the world but hermetically sealed off from each other, as East and West Germany were at the height of the Cold War. The arrangements for connection between Gaza and the West Bank should be much the same as those that subsisted between West Germany and West Berlin: an internationally guaranteed highway and rail connection and an internationally guaranteed air corridor, with the land connections subject to Israeli monitoring. I would look to the Arab World, particularly the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia, to do the main heavy lifting on the rebuilding and economic recovery of Palestine, perhaps with some US support. Palestine could administer any "Right of Return" as it sees fit, on the understanding that all "Returns" will be strictly to the Palestinian State as defined above.
I fully realize that this is not a recipe for a "cold peace". It's more like a recipe for a "frozen peace". But at least it WILL be a peace, and by forcing the two states to ignore each other, it will allow them to develop their ties to the rest of the world unhindered.
Still laughing at the thought that, among the ranks of Americans, Yeats (or any other poet) is overquoted. The difference between the extremes of the Right and Left is that one dominates one of two major US political parties, thereby having undeserved politically clout, and the other makes a few headlines in hopes of influence.
This post is being written on May 6 concerning the college campus protest and chaos about Gaza.
Glad to see President Biden coming out, defending right to pre-speech but talking about what it does not include These encampments have persons that are not students taking advantage of the situation Fueling this chaos and possibly radicalizing some of these students.
President Biden should win everything is sorted out and determined who was actually students there and who was not should move to Deport any student that was in this country on a student visa. Free speech and the right to protest does not include taking over private property, Harassing other students, Creating encampments and occupying buildings on a private university . Of course somebody else was behind all of this. The tents, the signage, the chants And the boldness to occupy are all indicators.
President Biden has the power to deport those students that are here on student visas
Sigh. You do realize that intifada simply means "rebellion?" It has been around as a political term since 1952 and involved internal strife in Iraq. Out of 24 uses listed by Wikipedia, 5 involve Palestinians and Israel. It's connotation for "destroy Israel" is not by any means universal.
One can agree that the Palestinians now and in the past have had plenty of reasons to dislike Israeli policies and ACTS against them without approving Hamas's METHODS of retaliation. Being pro Palestinian is NOT being pro Hamas, much less pro-terrorist.
I do wish every single student arrested in these protests were asked "do you support a two state solution" and "do you think that the Israeli government's reaction has gone over the top" and "do you think the Israeli government's actions are the fault of all Jews?"
And also ask any non-students similarly arrested.
The results very well may show that not a whole lot of those protesting were supporters of anything like the intifada that commentators are claiming they support--destruction of Israel. And some of the counter protestors may well show opinions that "from the River to the Sea" is a righteous phrase for the idea of the ambitions of Bibi's reactionaries in his cabinet and party.
Yes, I deplore violence in a protest. But yelling isn't violence. Camping isn't violence. Destruction of buildings is, and I deplore that action while also understanding the motives behind it.
As far as I can tell there actually hasn't been an investigation into antisemitic incidents reported nor any concrete examples of why it "isn't safe" to be on a campus when there ARE protests going any more then there are when the campus is just chugging along doing its usual thing. There are rabble rousers on both sides in this mess, and some of them are just COMMENTING on the protests, not part of them. And have there been Islamophobic instances on campus, either now or in the past? Curious minds want to know.
So while I deplore violence--and any real hate speech that violates the campus code against ANYONE--I also deplore the rush to judgment that is going on in so many stories and opinions about what is happening. It is hard to find instances of PEACEFUL protests on the subject being broadcast widely, though peaceful protests are indeed going on and you can find them if you look.
Antisemitism is on the rise. So is racism, religious intolerance, cultural intolerance, Islamophobia, and so much other hateful stuff Why? Ask trump, who has given so many people permission to voice prejudices they have have clearly had all along, where before a culture of basic civility had "stifled" that expression in public.
However, there is something that could be done that would enable the center to hold. Just change the voting system.
No how far left a voter is, they would prefer center over far right, and vice versa for right wing voters for the center over the far left. However, the current system ignores that preference because none of rate center first. IRV likewise ignores that preference because it would blithely eliminate the center first leaving far left and far right as the last two standing.
What's needed is is system which sets up a pairwise contest between all candidates so that if more voters prefer center over far right than the reverse and more voters prefer center over far left than the reverse, then center would win. While bringing that effect to the presidency would require national adoption of such a system, affecting Congress could be done with just a few states doing so. If the margin of power for the majority party consists of representatives elected by such a system, then the center would control what is able to pass in Congress.
"No, neither of these developments is of world-historical significance. But the second is emblematic of the fact that American conservatism has descended into Trumpism, and that Trumpism is closer to fascism than one might have thought. And the first suggests that the far Left is just as bad as people like me always thought it was."
But you DIDN'T think the GOP was headed in the wrong direction till Trump. The far left is just as far from actual power as it's ever been, and the far right WISHES it could have the Neocon days back again.
To put it plainer, one of these things is a firecracker. Hold it and lose some fingers. The other is a bomb. Yeah, the firecracker bit is bad, but it is no way comparable to the bomb. The students are newsworthy sure, but as bad as you always thought it was? Your record in estimating that is poor.
Both parties make an exercise of using the fringe of the other party as their example of the dangers that luck in their respective governing philosophies. But only one has ever come CLOSE to reality. When offered Bernie and those who are on the edge of the left the Democrats said no. The current president ran explicitly against that left hand turn.
There are conservative Democrats. Are there liberal Republicans? Let us not take our eye off of the ball because a minority of college students in a minority of colleges have decided that they have the answer to a conflict that has its genesis in pre history.
Yes it is. Power to the people.
I might be a minority of one, but all this coverage and over-reaction to the student protests are making things worse, not better.
Completely blown out of proportion and wild assumptions about who and what is happening, with, as usual, the worst actors being used as examples of the whole. I get the feeling some would not be happy until we have another Kent State.
Stop stirring the pot and let the schools deal with it without outside political pressure.
This is starting to look like the Iraq War, where only one viewpoint is allowed and all others must be punished.
I agree, there is a sense of piling on. They’re kids and they think they’re defending an underdog. Israel has over reacted and it will probably get worse, the kids aren’t wrong. But the tents and the flags are too much; breaking into buildings is too much. Luckily my kids have graduated! I wouldn’t want to be paying tuition at Columbia with this rumpus going on.
God, me either. I’m surprised every Jewish mother isn’t making her kid come home to finish online.
The school needs to deal seriously with any student who blames people who happen to be Jewish for whatever is going on in Palestine. It is the same stupidity that motivated a couple of laid-off auto workers to murder a Chinese person back in the 80s in retaliation because they believed they lost their jobs because of increased Japanese imports.
They can blame us. That protected speech. What they can’t do is threaten or harass us, or prevent our kids from getting on campus or to their classes, or touch us.
Thank you. Well said.
“Rave reviews, low turnout”? It was a pilot program and not available nationwide. They wanted 100,000 users, got over 140,000 and the reviews are great. Was that your take on the WaPost story? If so, bad take.
Good lord with the both-sides stuff William.... Trying to elevate college protests to the level of an anti-democratic political party literally bent on overthrowing our democracy is as lame as it gets... I'm about done given this the time of day.... on one side - (mostly) upset college kids on the other an aspiring autocratic with millions of followers seemingly ready to commit to political violence if they lose again.... gimme a break...
Exactly.
I want to comment on Kristi Noem shooting her dog. First no dog is untatrainable. If she didn't like her 14 mo dog, she should have sent him back to the breeder, sent him to a dog rescue or give him to some kind person. Instead she took a dog, who was probably at the age of a 10 year old human and shot him. Then she shot a goat because it smelled and wounded him, went back inside to get more ammo and finish him off. This is NOT the behavior of no nonsense farmer or a realistic person who makes hard decisions. That's not why people now hate her. Killing and injuring animals is the sighn of a budding sociopath. It's the sadism and cruelty that people are angry about. And her pride in not caring about killing a puppy or goat. Her caveat that some won't like what she did but it was necessary, is not going to cut it.
She is a monster.
"student mob has taken over Hamilton Hall at Columbia,"
Students who are mostly Muslim or pro Muslim and anti Semitic. That is not the far left. Anti semitism is as far right as can get
AND Columbia University is not representative of the US. I know you desperately want a both sides scenario, but this ain't it.
The far Left is every bit as antisemitic as the far Right. It’s the horseshoe theory of bigotry.
Correct. His own anti-Semitism and his tolerance of worse from others are among the main reasons that Jeremy Corbin is no longer the Opposition Leader in Britain, or even a member of the Labour Party. Anti-Semitism is very well represented on both points of the Horseshoe.
It's just that I know a lot far left Jewish people and not so many on the right. My longest friend is both religiously conservative and observant (but fairly liberal politically) pro Israel and I have made donations to Israel in his name because it's important to him.
However there are quite a few liberal Jews who hate Hamas but don't approve of the bombing of civilians. Point being, it's complicated. And not all Jewish people think a like.
Also, liberals aren’t the Left. I’m a liberal (lifelong) but would like the Rashida Tlaibs of the world slung into the sun.
I don't think she is left wing because she is a observant
Orthodox Muslim. Isn't that by definition conservative? But politically she is a Democrat because the Republicans wouldn't accept her. They only want ultra conservative Christians
Oh, she’s absolutely the Left. She’s part of the Squad.
I don’t know what the rules of Islam are, at all, but she is definitely Left.
But I think it's like she is radical and so hangs with those younger congress people, and she represents a poor ethnic area, a woman wearing a hijab is really socially conservative.
No, you’re right, we don’t.
I should have said that antisemites on the Left are just as antisemitic as those on the Right. And a lot of them are protesting.
I support Israel 100%, but I loathe Bibi. I am not alone. I am saddened by the loss of life but I understand that this is a war and the first rule of war is that innocents die. I would never join the protesters because I think they care less about the merits of the thing than getting attention.
Jews contain multitudes.
The far left and far right meet at antisemitism. By that point, they have become extremists, and extremists are about hatred.
I agree with you there.
Yes, your non-hatred is really showing. Most of these students are not anti-Semites. You can protest the war and not hate Israel. Because a few bad actors are in the mix, all the students at Columbia should just shut up because you don't like what they are protesting? This is what America staying America looks like.
That is a straw man. Students can protest all the want. They cannot assault Jewish classmates, break into buildings a la J6 or otherwise commit crimes. According to the footage, The problem is greater than "a few bad actors."
According to the footage, most people are sitting quietly on the lawn. Arrest them!
Both sentences are true at the same time.
Like I said, arrest them all. Free speech be damned, there are bad actors around.
You are not a serious person. Arrest the people committing crimes. Leave the rest alone.
They arrested everyone. Did you miss that in all your seriousness?
I find the campus protesters rather comical. I suppose if they represented a group with real political power I might feel differently.
They make demands and my question is "Okay, if they don't give you what you want, then what?" Will they set up camp and stay until they are 30? My own inclination would be to work around them and carry on life as normal. Their numbers are not sufficient.
I also think that the administrations should put their demands up for a referendum by the entire student body with the agreement that if their demands are supported by the majority then they will be taken up on an advisory basis. IF on the other hand the majority of the student body does not support their demands they will pack it up and move on.
Here in Florida they decided to go on a hunger strike which lasted 4 or 5 days before an organic veggie burger became irresistible. As I commented yesterday Palestinians and other Arabs rarely wore Keffiyeh but now they are the fashion du jour for the social justice jihadists of all ethnic types. Apparently this is the right kind of cultural appropriation.
To be honest I am so tired of all these popup protests that exist only because of the mimetic power of social media. It echoes the silliness of the "Occupy Movement."
I understand mass protests like the 2017 Women's March and the perennial March for Life which apparently hasn't heard of "the Dobbs" decision. I get the LGBTQ+ parades, the Civil Rights protests and marches, etc. They command attention because of their size.
But what are these protests/counter protests in front of the Supreme Court building or random campuses across the country, supposed to accomplish? Do the Justices know or care? Strictly speaking such things should not influence them at all.
Personally I see a direct connection between these and similar protests and January 6. There is some psychological need deeper than the causes they are supporting that needs to be projected into the world.
And don't ever forget that some of this is being driven from a Russian Bot Farm.
I cannot understand the hatred for protesters that so many of you on this site proclaim. Is this not America and exactly what you should want from young people who are fed up?
I hate protesters who call for the forceful relocation or death of Jews. I hate protesters who harass or threaten Jews.
As for the rest, meh. Protest your little hearts out, spoiled children.
It isn't hatred. I would just like college students to go to class and learn. Extracurricular mob activities are not conducive to their personal and professional development.
I would also like them to analyze (with a professional perhaps) what it is exactly they are "fed up" with. Performative and ineffective political "activism" is often driven by an insecure ego and porous personal boundaries.
It is hatred and they are fed up with what they view as genocide. You don't have to agree with them, but a lot of serious people in the world do. And even if no one agrees with them, they still have every right to protest. Ridiculous armchair psychoanalysis is not needed here.
They have every right to protest. They have no right to assault anyone or break into buildings.
Then they should go to Gaza and help. Otherwise it’s just performative. For most of them it’s a social activity.
See how many stick around when school’s out.
Well, no they should not go to Gaza. However they should protest without violating laws by assaulting others or breaking into buildings. It is too bad "performative" has become a negative buzzword.
It’s just a word. I don’t use buzzwords. They are performing, like trained seals, without any real understanding. Most will scatter when the semester ends.
More understanding would probably make them even more angry. Besides that a giant generalization. There is a Columbia student right here on the Bulwark whose comments show a good deal of understanding. By the way, nearly every protest stretching back as far as you want to go is "performative," because protesters are usually powerless to do anything besides protest and maybe write letters to the editor or congresspeople.
Putting extreme emotional labels (such as "hatred") on reasonably expressed objections to a practice you personally happen to approve of -- even after people have clearly told you that that is not what they are feeling -- is itself a form of "ridiculous armchair psychoanalysis."
It's a difficult issue on which people of intelligence and goodwill can easily disagree. Stop putting polarizing labels on it.
Ok let's call it "extreme disdain". Is that better? It's really something that this site is supposedly anti-Authoritarian, but people on the right just can't help themselves from gravitating toward it.
No, I would say that's still a completely inaccurate assessment.
And I do think it's amusing, all our different ideas of what this site is "supposed" to be. It's almost like a Rorschach test.
This will not stop genocide.
Criticism is not the same thing as hatred. Hatred is unhealthy; criticism and disagreement are healthy; that should not have to be said here.
Yes, this is America (of course) -- and no, this egotistical, intolerant, tainted-with-antisemitism performance is not what I do or should want from young people, or old people, or middle-aged people, who have legitimate political and moral concerns. (Whether they're "fed up" or not, I could give a rip; I've been fed up for 50 years and I'm still capable of taking care of myself without trampling on others' rights; so are most people who walk this planet.)
To simply accept this because people are young and "fed up" would be to lump every possible kind of protest carelessly together and assume that just because it's protest, it's OK. Precisely *because* this is America and I want it to stay America, I will not do that.
Bill, were you not on a college campus in 1969 -70? I was at the University of Illinois as a freshman. There were National Guard there, with live ammo. It was tense. I got arrested for protesting after curfew. I also attended the National Moratorium Against the War in DC. Reports of 500,000 strong there. Why are so many clutching their pearls now concerning some protests that are occurring. This is nothing. Young people, like I was, are optimistic, challenging authority, asking questions.... Maybe the question should be why has the Israeli/Palestinian war been going on as long as you and I have been alive?
There was no comparison, and yes I was there. Vietnam was our war with our dead boys.
Those protests helped get Nixon elected, so they weren’t quite as successful as you think. And I was on the protestors’ side.
The cosplay going on now is absolutely nothing like then.
Ed, I was on campus then, too. In fact, I was at Georgetown, so if you went to the Moratorium, there's a good chance that you were camping under my windows for at least one night.
I didn't participate in those demonstrations, either, because I thought that they were an oversimplification, but there was one enormous difference between those demonstrations and now: in 1969-70, nobody was calling for the annihilation of one of the sides. Today, anyone chanting "From the River to the Sea ..." or worse, shouting "We are Hamas!" definitely is cheering for Team Annihilation, and knows that or should know it.
Al, the ground swell against the War in Vietnam helped to stop that war. The youth movement was part of that. There has been an Israeli/Palestinian war for as long as we have been alive. It seems that it is no closer to a resolution now than when it started. Let's not only condemn Hamas. Can we not condemn the Zionists for not moving to a solution. There is no comparison between the military might of Israel and the Palestinians. Do you realize that the Zionists used the slogan "from the river to the sea" years ago, wanting to expel all Palestinians. This is certainly complicated, and more so because of the religious zealotry on both sides.
No, Ed, I'm afraid that we cannot join to "condemn the Zionists for not moving toward a solution", or agree on any other type of bothsidesism, unless you can come up with a plausible explanation for this timeline:
-- 1948 United Nations Partition Plan, accepted by "the Zionists", rejected by the Palestinian leadership in the name of the Palestinians;
-- 1979 Egypt-Israel peace negotiations offered the Palestinians autonomy, which would almost certainly have led to full independence. Rejected by the Palestinian leadership in the name of the Palestinians;
-- The Oslo agreements of the 1990s laid out a path for Palestinian independence, but the process was derailed by terrorism.
-- 2000, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered to create a Palestinian state in all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Rejected by the Palestinian leadership in the name of the Palestinians;
-- 2008, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert offered to withdraw from almost the entire West Bank and partition Jerusalem on a demographic basis. Rejected by the Palestinian leadership in the name of the Palestinians;
In the immortal words of Abba Eban, "The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. And I only mention without further description the anti-Semitic and pro-Nazi machinations of Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Palestinian leader, through the entire pre-World War II and immediate post-war period.
I don't think that it's possible any longer for the Israelis and Palestinians to live side by side in peace in the way that normal states, even hostile normal states, do, not for decades, anyway. I believe that what must happen after Hamas is utterly destroyed is for Israel to be required to remove all settlements from the West Bank (they should never have been permitted in the first place), and for Israel, basically behind the pre-1967 Lines of Control with some adjustments at Jerusalem, and a demilitarized but sovereign Palestine, consisting of the West Bank and Gaza, to live side by side with each open to the world but hermetically sealed off from each other, as East and West Germany were at the height of the Cold War. The arrangements for connection between Gaza and the West Bank should be much the same as those that subsisted between West Germany and West Berlin: an internationally guaranteed highway and rail connection and an internationally guaranteed air corridor, with the land connections subject to Israeli monitoring. I would look to the Arab World, particularly the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia, to do the main heavy lifting on the rebuilding and economic recovery of Palestine, perhaps with some US support. Palestine could administer any "Right of Return" as it sees fit, on the understanding that all "Returns" will be strictly to the Palestinian State as defined above.
I fully realize that this is not a recipe for a "cold peace". It's more like a recipe for a "frozen peace". But at least it WILL be a peace, and by forcing the two states to ignore each other, it will allow them to develop their ties to the rest of the world unhindered.
The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
but I have promises to keep
and miles to go before I sleep
and miles to go before I sleep.
Feels like Mr. Kristol was nodding in that direction in closing. Not Yeats!
Still laughing at the thought that, among the ranks of Americans, Yeats (or any other poet) is overquoted. The difference between the extremes of the Right and Left is that one dominates one of two major US political parties, thereby having undeserved politically clout, and the other makes a few headlines in hopes of influence.