The New Yorker's Susan Glasser joins the group (with Andrew Egger) to discuss the aftermath of the assassination attempt, JD Vance, and Biden digging in his heels.
I need to comment on Mona’s assertion that Biden has shown himself to be vain and arrogant. It does seem that way, but I know from personal experience that this is typical of people who are in cognitive decline, even if they have never shown that tendency before. The basis of that behavior is a desperate attempt to retain control of their own person. They delude themselves into believing they can do everything they used to do. I think Joe in his right mind is a very good man. I blame those around him for their collusion with his delusion. I think they are guilty of elder abuse.
And. Unlike the republicans who just laid down and took what Trump was shoveling and said give us more and fundamentally changed their party which is not really a Conservative Party anymore. Democrats are stepping up, both voters and politicians and telling the leader of their party that he needs to step down.
Okay. Let’s settle a few things. If anyone here has ever had to deal with a parent or grandparent that has suffered from dementia you know from personal experience that they often are confused, don’t listen, get angry because they’re confused and become argumentative. So talking about Biden being vain, narcissistic, and putting himself above country and party I think is wrong. Everyone should be upset with his family and advisors who are trying to protect his legacy and in some cases probably protecting their own butts. I completely agree that he needs to step aside, but please stop the personal attacks on a man who saved us four years ago from the Devil himself.
I'm becoming as frustrated as @emorgan21 @kevincromer and others here. A lifelong Democrat, I've never been ashamed of my party--until now. I enthusiastically voted for Biden-Harris. But I've grown tired of watching as some of Biden’s supporters have recoiled in terror post-debate, stubbornly defending their guy. Wow. They’ve just discovered the man is old. And a side disadvantage to Biden’s age —until the last three weeks or so— has been his staff’s failure to take the fight, daily, to possibly the easiest target (figuratively speaking only) in American political history. Inexcusable.
In case the obvious needs pointing out again: Biden has already lost this race to anyone with an elderly relative, and a set of working ears that can get one eye open. Every minute that passes without a strong Democratic ticket is an insult to the party faithful. And I don't mean 'Hillary Squared' because it's easier to keep Harris and the money, and Whitmer is the only Midwesterner anybody has done a little polling on. I'm a woman, and I think that ticket is just dreadful...seriously lazy and shows a total lack of imagination. Either woman is fine on their own (but Harris is better, for the obvious reasons). I would like to see a male veep because, well, winning is good.
If the Democrats want to be truly modern, they need to stop pretending it’s still 1990, shake off that fear about early polling and start thinking outside the box. Honestly, it’s all uphill from here. There are millions of apathetic Americans who can be reached *with the right ticket* I liked Carville’s idea about accepting some public input about it. Messy? Probably. But Presidents aren’t elected just inside the Beltway, you know, however inconvenient that might be for some. There are actual average, everyday folks who vote, too, and they have opinions. Ignore them at your peril.
But in the short term Biden needs to graciously retire, accept his --deservedly-- honorable place in history, and pass the torch to the next generation. Otherwise, that next generation will yawn, as the 2024 election ushers in the first American authoritarian dictator. God help us all.
Someone needs to ask what would he think of Obamacare being repealed?
What would he think of Ukraine running out of materiel and soon afterwards Russian tanks rolling into Kyiv?
What would he think if the civil service was gutted with the federal workforce being transformed into a MAGA patronage mill?
Would he say that he put up the good to deny the enabler the ability to do all of that or would he think that perhaps he should have let someone who could actually prosecute that case step up to do so?
How would that epitome of masculinity Damon Linker have reacted if a bullet grazed his head? Probably like any fat middle aged guy like him and me (we’re the same age). We would literally shit our pants, stick our thumb in our mouth, and think of a safe place. I will never vote for Trump, but his reaction showed courage and incredible showmanship. If you snickering pundits can’t give him at least that, you have lost all touch with the average American.
Here's what I hear when I listen to political podcasts.
I hear the elder generation talking about foreign policy as if it were still the 1980s.
I hear the elder generation saying only President Biden can make the decision to step down.
The truth of the matter it's 2024 and not 1980, so like former President Obama said, let's leave those politics back in the 80's where they belong.
As to my 2nd point. Here are a few ways that Biden can be removed from the ticket.
1.) He steps down willingly (not gonna happen).
2.) *** Put pressure on the delegates not to vote for him as nominee. ***
3.) There's this little thing in the Constitution called the 25th amendment.
section 4 of the 25th Amendment:
Section 4:
Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department [sic][note 2][7] or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.
Notice that it does not say only the cabinet and vice president can do this but that, "or of such other body as Congress may by law provide".
This means that Congress has it in their power to remove him from office and the by and by is if he is unfit and removed from office then it stands to reason that he would be unfit to be elected to another term.
Easy enough, if we think that former President Trump is truly a clear and present danger to democracy and is going to lead our country into fascism.
Though I'm starting to think that the Democrat Party doesn't really believe what they're saying about this or they would move forward with one of these obvious options.
You favorably cite Obama's jab at Romney in response to the latter's statement that Russia was our primary geopolitical adversary. But Russia's subsequent behavior has completely vindicated Romney. When it came to foreign policy, Obama was an idiot and a failure - and he was a precursor of Trump.
If Biden's replacement at the top of the Democratic ticket wants my vote, s/he will need to be at least as supportive of Ukraine as Biden has been.
To be honest NATO should have been disbanded when the Soviet Union fell, as the purpose of NATO was to contain the Soviet Union.
At the very least we should have welcomed Russia into NATO when the Soviet Union fell as a sign of good faith.
We welcomed Japan and West Germany after WWII so we wouldn't repeat the mistakes we made in the aftermath of WWI. The same should have been done for Russia.
The opportunity I see is this, friendship.
The United Stated should drop the propaganda against China and Russia and welcome them onto the world stage and give them the respect that they deserve as fellow Superpowers.
Russia has a lot to offer in untapped natural resources not to mention the fact that up and until the war in Ukraine they were our only option to get our Astronauts up to and down from the Space Station.
China is going through their industrial revolution and they have a lot to offer as well.
We are so economically interlocked with China that there is no reason to be so hostile for them.
Simply put this anti-China / anti-Russia spiel is Boomer-think.
The Boomers grew up under intense government and religious propaganda that combined to create an outsized year of Russia and Communism as a whole.
That time has passed, but the Boomers with their induced trauma remain.
As a GenXer I don't have that fear because I watched as the Berlin Wall fell and the Soviet Union dissolved.
I watched China, while being nominally Communist, become hyper-capitalist.
By the way China now controls both sides of the Panama Canal, which was made so we could get our Navy from the Pacific to the Atlantic. If China was that bad would we have allowed this to happen?
If you look at your clothing it's likely to have been made in Vietnam, which is Communist.
President Obama had us on a path to have normalized relations with Cuba, until former President Trump reversed course.
All of these examples, to my mind at least, show that this irrational fear of Russia, China, and Communism in general is just that; irrational.
As far as Ukraine goes, I hate to seem callous, but that's their issue, not ours.
With the amount of money we've spent there we could have had Universal Healthcare and Universal Basic Income here at home; at the very least.
Our military spending doesn't reflect the danger in the world today.
America is not the world's police force.
America should not be poking our nose into the affairs of other nations. How would we feel if NATO or the U.N. decided to send troops into Texas to relieve the humanitarian crisis on our border.
You say my thinking is "old thinking", but your thinking is actually older. Like Obama, you have imbibed so deeply of the old Soviet-influenced thinking of the left that you can't even see its anti-American roots. The leftward factions of the Democratic Party are still dominated by this idiocy, and now it is taking over the Republican Party as well.
We welcomed China into the international order, and the Chinese communist leadership has exploited its membership in the international community to do everything in its power to subvert that order. We had previously tried to welcome Russia into the international order via a partnership with NATO, but Russia spurned the offer.
The notion that the US can abdicate its international role is historically illiterate. We attempted that twice in the early 20th century, resulting in WW1 and WW2. The only reason there has not been a third world war is because the US has stayed engaged with the world to prevent it.
If the US were to abdicate its role as the world's policeman, China would gladly fill the vacuum. I can guarantee you would not like the results unless you are on the payroll of the Chinese Communist Party.
I could easily say that you are steeped in 1950s era American propaganda and McCarthyism.
So let's tone down the insults shall we?
Most of what you have stated is inaccurate at best.
President Nixon opened up China to the West for commerce purposes and this has been very successful as we get most of our goods from China. Check the manufacturing data on most of the stuff you own.
Not to mention the reaction against Chinese people and Chinese Americans during and slightly after COVID.
Russia has never been offered membership in NATO, though it has made overtures that it would welcome this opportunity as long as they were on equal standing with the other members. Can you guess how that went? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93NATO_relations#
China and Russia aren't blameless and innocent in anything, but neither are we.
We all have our issues. The point is that we need to set these issues aside and work together.
If you're more in favor on the enlightened self interest approach let's go this way.
Wouldn't it be better for America to be in a PTO rather than a NATO?
Imagine the 3 super powers uniting and what we could accomplish.
When I "imagine the 3 super powers uniting", I imagine the world of Orwell's 1984, where the leaders of Oceania, East Asia, and Eurasia collude to oppress their own peoples and to rape the rest of the world.
Why should the US unite with corrupt autocracies against our natural allies, who share our enlightened traditions and values? It sounds like you want to live in a world that is safe for corrupt autocrats and everyone else is a slave. If that's the kind of life you want, you should just move to Russia or Hungary instead of trying to drag the rest of the world into that hopeless abyss.
France drug us in to WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Haiti (I would of placed them first but it's still ongoing).
Germany well I shouldn't have to relay their history to you, but they started both WW1 and WW2 and they were our enemies.
Britain is our only natural ally, if you want to use that term (Britain includes Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, and all the other of the Commonwealth states).
Russia was our ally in WW2 and bore the brunt of WW2 and was the primary engine of defeat of WW2 Germany (check your history, it's true).
In general France and Germany are bad times and bad I wouldn't call them allies at all.
As far as 1984 is concerned, well it's a dystopian novel.
Have you ever heard of the five eyes?
The five eyes are an anglosphere alliance comprising Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and America.
Read your history and you will see that we had Oligarchs as well and there was plenty of shenanigans going on with our version of them.
China is a bit different, but their culture is so alien to ours and their history goes back so far it can be difficult for us Westerners to understand it's intricacies.
For example I recently discovered that the Uyghur people came about because of the many Mongol and other northeast invasions of China.
I learned this from the Great Courses and not from Wikipedia. I posted this because it is publicly available.
This explains, but not condones, the Chinese treatment of this population as they are descendants of the people group that kept invading and conquering parts of China over the centuries.
History is important and it's effects ripple forward in time.
The Mediterranean Europeans had the same sort of history with the old Muslim Empires.
The difference is how the European governments treat these people groups today.
In short your premise is faulty because it lacks the historical perspective necessary, is based on a dystopian novel, and mid 20th Century American propaganda.
Think what a decades long friendship could bring and how much humanity could benefit from this friendship and the technology we are developing.
Tell us about the great grocery stores in Moscow, please. Food for thought: do you like your iPhone and other creature comforts? You wouldn't have them without America's world leadership and nuclear umbrella.
Europe gets most of their natural gas from Russia, without it they would have faced some pretty hard winters.
Wars happen.
America had the French-Indian War, The Revolutionary War, The War of 1812, The Canadian American war, The Indian (Wars against Native Americans) Wars, The Mexican American War and so on...
Heck, we even invaded Canada on three separate occasions. Once in 1775 during the American Revolution, rebel forces invaded Canada, occupying Montreal and attacking the town of Quebec.; once between 1812-1815 during the War of 1812 saw the United States launch a series of land and sea invasions of British North America (now Canada); and once in 1837, saw American rebels from the Hunters’ Lodges invade Canada, with the Battle of the Windmill being a notable event.
Are we giving California, New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas back to Mexico?
Are we giving back the land snatched from the Native Americans?
Have we apologized and made recompense to Canada?
To be honest we are not likely to be giving any land back to anyone or apologizing to Canada.
To try and take the moral high-ground with Russia reeks of historical hypocrisy.
Yes war is bad and in general unwarranted, but all countries throughout history have fallen into the trap of war.
Like Battlestar Galactica said, “All this has happened before, and all of it will happen again”.
Yes, but, I have read they are the most loyal to him, I am not sure that is going to work either...
People who are anti Biden staying on, really underestimate how many people don't agree, and by my internet people alone, adn there are more who aren't even on the internet...they aren't going to just quietly let something happen without a fight.
There are people here and other places, who say they wish it was someone else, but ,they will still vote for him if he stays. I don't think lthey polled those people. They didn't ask them if they would vote for him either way...only that they wish he would step away, that isn't the same thing.
You don't know society as a whole , no one does, and it isn't the same everywhere...I live in OH, it is not like a swing state for instance
And I know a lot of Dems who aren't online at all AND haven't been polled, we talked about it...
There are more non poltiical, and non polled people than the reverse, the online people are just the loudest ( On WAPO and NYT, also, the group is pretty big that perfers he run. They even shut down NYT's comment section due to NYT's bashing Biden and treating Trump with respect.
As far as knowing society as a whole I get a general vibe on it.
I've been voting since 1991 and I've called every single winner of the Presidential race since then.
Clinton won when he played the sax on the Arsenio Hall show.
GW Bush won his 1st election because of his personality (for example SNL did a sketch where Al Gore was portrayed as a robot. I called it then.)
GW Bush won his 2nd term because he gave people something to vote for and Kerry just asked that people vote for him to get rid of Bush. (People like to have something to believe in. They're aching for it.)
Obama won his first term because he offered people hope.
Obama won his 2nd term because he still offered people hope.
Trump won his first term because he offered people the chance to clean up Washington (and also because he stole Reagans slogan, "Let's Make America Great Again. Yep the Reagan / Bush campaign used the term first and Trump stole it.)
Biden is the only President I've ever seen win a Presidential Election by running a negative campaign with the only offering as being join me to beat Trump).
I called them all.
That is why I'm saying that if they don't replace Biden as the presumptive nominee the Democrats will lose and Trump will retake the White House.
To me and my experience it's that simple.
I'm pro the Democrats promoting my Governor, Andy Beshear, as either the Presidential nominee or as the Vice Presidential Nominee.
He is a GenXer, he pulled KY out of the pandemic against the will of the Republican Legislature, and made our economy better, and now I saw on the news that KY has a $1 billion dollar budget surplus.
Budget surplus (meaning real dollars), and not a surplus on our deficit spending like Clinton had.
He's the kind of candidate that we need to beat Trump in 2024.
He's positive, young, and would give people something to vote for and someone to rally around.
Theya ern't going to use the 25th, for one reason they don't have the votes, for another they are not going to embarass him like that...it isn't an option, they would have to accuse him or things they would have to prove are true..I have read multiple explanations why that isn't going to work
If former President Trump is truly a threat then the 25th amendment should be on the table.
Like Mona said in the podcast, it's not about President Biden, his pride, or his ego. It's about beating former President Trump.
Do they want to beat former President Trump or coddle President Biden? You can't have both.
Proving it, I'm not sure that they have to prove anything. The text of the 25th Amendment doesn't mention having to offer proof of unfitness. It says that they half to send a letter to get the process started.
But as far as proof goes we have video and audio footage of several of his interviews; not to mention his infamous debate.
In this audio and video footage it's abundantly clear to any clear thinking person, especially on who has had a parent or grandparent go through mental decline via Alzheimer's, Senile Dementia, or just getting old, that President Biden is unfit to currently be serving as President of the United States of America, much less be re-elected as President.
Now I understand that people wish to be nice and not embarrass the President, but at this point they've given him every opportunity to step aside and he won't, willingly (I suspect that he doesn't have the mental wherewithal to make that decision).
I also suspect the people needed to do so don't want to embarrass the President out of self interest, especially the ones that are 60+ years old themselves as this could call their own mental acuity into debate which could cause them to lose power.
I've got 3 other names for you. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Dianne Feinstein, and Mitch McConnell.
Justice Ginsburg clung to office to long, even as former President Obama asked her to retire.
Dianne Feinstein was caught on video voting on something and just said Aye when she was told by an aide just to say Aye.
Mitch McConnell froze up a few times on national television (at least he had the good graced to step down from his leadership position).
Do we really want a repeat of these with the current President?
How badly do we want former President Trump to lose the election?
How much of a threat to democracy do we really believe he is?
I'm going RFK Jr unless the Democrats field another, 55yr old or younger, candidate.
He may not be awesome, but at least he can finish his thoughts and bring forth the case as to why he should be elected.
He has to be unable to do the job for the 25th amendment to be used, it has to proven and they have to have a majority of votes...
WSJ has a piece about it, but, I am not a subscriber so I can only post this part:
The risk isn’t zero if Mr. Biden stays in power, but the alternatives are hardly compelling. Read the 25th Amendment. It isn’t designed for removing a leader who doesn’t think himself incapacitated. Deeming a President unable to perform his duties requires a declaration to that effect from the Vice President and a majority of the cabinet, all of whom have some loyalty to the man in the Oval Office. Is Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg ready to throw Mr. Biden under the electric bus?
I like to read the amendments and see what they actually say which is why I posted article 4 of the 25th amendment.
So, for specificity article 4, paragraph 2, lines 3 and 4 state:
"unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide".
The key line for me is, "or of such other body as Congress may by law provide."
So in effect it's not just the Vice President and the cabinet, but also "or of such other body as Congress may by law provide".
On MAGA "isolationism" and caring about China more than Russia, I have to sometimes wonder whether or not we'll go to war with China in the future not because of any kind of MAGA cares about Taiwanese independence, but because so much of our tech-heavy economy/markets are so reliant on offshore semi-conductor manufacturing that the pro-billionaire party would gladly sacrifice tens of thousands of American lives in a war with China to keep the tech oligarch's pockets flush via maintaining geopolitical semi-conductor hegemony. Or am I being too cynical?
Given how transactional Trump is, it is not unreasonable to believe he might sell US foreign policy to the highest bidder, and his Silicon Valley supporters would be hard to outbid.
God personally intervened to make sure that bullet didn't hit Trump but he sat by and let kids in countless mass shootings got cut down by AR15 fire. He also took a long nap during the Holocaust.
The news is moving so fast that podcasts must be released on the same day they are recorded.
We've had an avalanche of news is last 24 hours that make this discussion .... not uninteresting, but frustrating. I know that "Beg to Differ" is a week in review format, with folks scratching their chins and putting events in context.
WTF Mona! I cannot believe that anyone still thinks that Trump goes away in four years. He's going to figure out a way to stay on just like Putin and Xi. Easy if you do not believe the Constitution is enforceable.
I don't know. The guy is declining fast and a NYTimes doc said the biggest decline typically occurs between ages 77 and 82. He has these years to look forward to. They will probably try to groom a new Trump.
When Boris Yel'tsin was in decline, he paved the way for Putin to succeed him in exchange for a promise not to investigate or prosecute him. Trump might look for the same kind of arrangement.
I agree. Even the orange psychopath--God's very warrior--can't outrun the second law of thermodynamics. In four years, he'll be even more diminished, hopefully so diminisehd even the MAGA jackels will turn on him.
I need to comment on Mona’s assertion that Biden has shown himself to be vain and arrogant. It does seem that way, but I know from personal experience that this is typical of people who are in cognitive decline, even if they have never shown that tendency before. The basis of that behavior is a desperate attempt to retain control of their own person. They delude themselves into believing they can do everything they used to do. I think Joe in his right mind is a very good man. I blame those around him for their collusion with his delusion. I think they are guilty of elder abuse.
Enjoyed the show as usual. Appreciated the Biden segment and am just amazed how his family/wife has allowed this to go on as long as it has.
And. Unlike the republicans who just laid down and took what Trump was shoveling and said give us more and fundamentally changed their party which is not really a Conservative Party anymore. Democrats are stepping up, both voters and politicians and telling the leader of their party that he needs to step down.
Okay. Let’s settle a few things. If anyone here has ever had to deal with a parent or grandparent that has suffered from dementia you know from personal experience that they often are confused, don’t listen, get angry because they’re confused and become argumentative. So talking about Biden being vain, narcissistic, and putting himself above country and party I think is wrong. Everyone should be upset with his family and advisors who are trying to protect his legacy and in some cases probably protecting their own butts. I completely agree that he needs to step aside, but please stop the personal attacks on a man who saved us four years ago from the Devil himself.
Sweet puppy! More puppies, please. We're going to need our dogs more than ever this year.
I'm becoming as frustrated as @emorgan21 @kevincromer and others here. A lifelong Democrat, I've never been ashamed of my party--until now. I enthusiastically voted for Biden-Harris. But I've grown tired of watching as some of Biden’s supporters have recoiled in terror post-debate, stubbornly defending their guy. Wow. They’ve just discovered the man is old. And a side disadvantage to Biden’s age —until the last three weeks or so— has been his staff’s failure to take the fight, daily, to possibly the easiest target (figuratively speaking only) in American political history. Inexcusable.
In case the obvious needs pointing out again: Biden has already lost this race to anyone with an elderly relative, and a set of working ears that can get one eye open. Every minute that passes without a strong Democratic ticket is an insult to the party faithful. And I don't mean 'Hillary Squared' because it's easier to keep Harris and the money, and Whitmer is the only Midwesterner anybody has done a little polling on. I'm a woman, and I think that ticket is just dreadful...seriously lazy and shows a total lack of imagination. Either woman is fine on their own (but Harris is better, for the obvious reasons). I would like to see a male veep because, well, winning is good.
If the Democrats want to be truly modern, they need to stop pretending it’s still 1990, shake off that fear about early polling and start thinking outside the box. Honestly, it’s all uphill from here. There are millions of apathetic Americans who can be reached *with the right ticket* I liked Carville’s idea about accepting some public input about it. Messy? Probably. But Presidents aren’t elected just inside the Beltway, you know, however inconvenient that might be for some. There are actual average, everyday folks who vote, too, and they have opinions. Ignore them at your peril.
But in the short term Biden needs to graciously retire, accept his --deservedly-- honorable place in history, and pass the torch to the next generation. Otherwise, that next generation will yawn, as the 2024 election ushers in the first American authoritarian dictator. God help us all.
Someone needs to ask what would he think of Obamacare being repealed?
What would he think of Ukraine running out of materiel and soon afterwards Russian tanks rolling into Kyiv?
What would he think if the civil service was gutted with the federal workforce being transformed into a MAGA patronage mill?
Would he say that he put up the good to deny the enabler the ability to do all of that or would he think that perhaps he should have let someone who could actually prosecute that case step up to do so?
I just can not take any more of this pressure to agree with you guys , or to disregard my moral stance and what I think is the right thing to do.
You aren't going to change my mind here, so, I guess I have to give up reading and watching until I don't have to feel like this anymore
How would that epitome of masculinity Damon Linker have reacted if a bullet grazed his head? Probably like any fat middle aged guy like him and me (we’re the same age). We would literally shit our pants, stick our thumb in our mouth, and think of a safe place. I will never vote for Trump, but his reaction showed courage and incredible showmanship. If you snickering pundits can’t give him at least that, you have lost all touch with the average American.
Here's what I hear when I listen to political podcasts.
I hear the elder generation talking about foreign policy as if it were still the 1980s.
I hear the elder generation saying only President Biden can make the decision to step down.
The truth of the matter it's 2024 and not 1980, so like former President Obama said, let's leave those politics back in the 80's where they belong.
As to my 2nd point. Here are a few ways that Biden can be removed from the ticket.
1.) He steps down willingly (not gonna happen).
2.) *** Put pressure on the delegates not to vote for him as nominee. ***
3.) There's this little thing in the Constitution called the 25th amendment.
section 4 of the 25th Amendment:
Section 4:
Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department [sic][note 2][7] or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.
Notice that it does not say only the cabinet and vice president can do this but that, "or of such other body as Congress may by law provide".
This means that Congress has it in their power to remove him from office and the by and by is if he is unfit and removed from office then it stands to reason that he would be unfit to be elected to another term.
Easy enough, if we think that former President Trump is truly a clear and present danger to democracy and is going to lead our country into fascism.
Though I'm starting to think that the Democrat Party doesn't really believe what they're saying about this or they would move forward with one of these obvious options.
You favorably cite Obama's jab at Romney in response to the latter's statement that Russia was our primary geopolitical adversary. But Russia's subsequent behavior has completely vindicated Romney. When it came to foreign policy, Obama was an idiot and a failure - and he was a precursor of Trump.
If Biden's replacement at the top of the Democratic ticket wants my vote, s/he will need to be at least as supportive of Ukraine as Biden has been.
That's the old way of thinking.
What I see is opportunity.
To be honest NATO should have been disbanded when the Soviet Union fell, as the purpose of NATO was to contain the Soviet Union.
At the very least we should have welcomed Russia into NATO when the Soviet Union fell as a sign of good faith.
We welcomed Japan and West Germany after WWII so we wouldn't repeat the mistakes we made in the aftermath of WWI. The same should have been done for Russia.
The opportunity I see is this, friendship.
The United Stated should drop the propaganda against China and Russia and welcome them onto the world stage and give them the respect that they deserve as fellow Superpowers.
Russia has a lot to offer in untapped natural resources not to mention the fact that up and until the war in Ukraine they were our only option to get our Astronauts up to and down from the Space Station.
China is going through their industrial revolution and they have a lot to offer as well.
We are so economically interlocked with China that there is no reason to be so hostile for them.
Simply put this anti-China / anti-Russia spiel is Boomer-think.
The Boomers grew up under intense government and religious propaganda that combined to create an outsized year of Russia and Communism as a whole.
That time has passed, but the Boomers with their induced trauma remain.
As a GenXer I don't have that fear because I watched as the Berlin Wall fell and the Soviet Union dissolved.
I watched China, while being nominally Communist, become hyper-capitalist.
By the way China now controls both sides of the Panama Canal, which was made so we could get our Navy from the Pacific to the Atlantic. If China was that bad would we have allowed this to happen?
If you look at your clothing it's likely to have been made in Vietnam, which is Communist.
President Obama had us on a path to have normalized relations with Cuba, until former President Trump reversed course.
All of these examples, to my mind at least, show that this irrational fear of Russia, China, and Communism in general is just that; irrational.
As far as Ukraine goes, I hate to seem callous, but that's their issue, not ours.
With the amount of money we've spent there we could have had Universal Healthcare and Universal Basic Income here at home; at the very least.
Our military spending doesn't reflect the danger in the world today.
America is not the world's police force.
America should not be poking our nose into the affairs of other nations. How would we feel if NATO or the U.N. decided to send troops into Texas to relieve the humanitarian crisis on our border.
I bet we wouldn't like it one, single, bit.
Just food for thought. :)
You say my thinking is "old thinking", but your thinking is actually older. Like Obama, you have imbibed so deeply of the old Soviet-influenced thinking of the left that you can't even see its anti-American roots. The leftward factions of the Democratic Party are still dominated by this idiocy, and now it is taking over the Republican Party as well.
We welcomed China into the international order, and the Chinese communist leadership has exploited its membership in the international community to do everything in its power to subvert that order. We had previously tried to welcome Russia into the international order via a partnership with NATO, but Russia spurned the offer.
The notion that the US can abdicate its international role is historically illiterate. We attempted that twice in the early 20th century, resulting in WW1 and WW2. The only reason there has not been a third world war is because the US has stayed engaged with the world to prevent it.
If the US were to abdicate its role as the world's policeman, China would gladly fill the vacuum. I can guarantee you would not like the results unless you are on the payroll of the Chinese Communist Party.
I could easily say that you are steeped in 1950s era American propaganda and McCarthyism.
So let's tone down the insults shall we?
Most of what you have stated is inaccurate at best.
President Nixon opened up China to the West for commerce purposes and this has been very successful as we get most of our goods from China. Check the manufacturing data on most of the stuff you own.
From what I have seen, the history I have read, and the documentaries I've watched it all points to the fact that China has always been relegated to a second class position by America. We had the Chinese Exclusion Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act, the Anti-Coolie Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Coolie_Act, the Pigtail Ordinance of 1873 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigtail_Ordinance, and the Page Act of 1875, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_Act_of_1875.
Not to mention the reaction against Chinese people and Chinese Americans during and slightly after COVID.
Russia has never been offered membership in NATO, though it has made overtures that it would welcome this opportunity as long as they were on equal standing with the other members. Can you guess how that went? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93NATO_relations#
China and Russia aren't blameless and innocent in anything, but neither are we.
We all have our issues. The point is that we need to set these issues aside and work together.
If you're more in favor on the enlightened self interest approach let's go this way.
Wouldn't it be better for America to be in a PTO rather than a NATO?
Imagine the 3 super powers uniting and what we could accomplish.
When I "imagine the 3 super powers uniting", I imagine the world of Orwell's 1984, where the leaders of Oceania, East Asia, and Eurasia collude to oppress their own peoples and to rape the rest of the world.
Why should the US unite with corrupt autocracies against our natural allies, who share our enlightened traditions and values? It sounds like you want to live in a world that is safe for corrupt autocrats and everyone else is a slave. If that's the kind of life you want, you should just move to Russia or Hungary instead of trying to drag the rest of the world into that hopeless abyss.
Natural Allies?
France drug us in to WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Haiti (I would of placed them first but it's still ongoing).
Germany well I shouldn't have to relay their history to you, but they started both WW1 and WW2 and they were our enemies.
Britain is our only natural ally, if you want to use that term (Britain includes Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, and all the other of the Commonwealth states).
Russia was our ally in WW2 and bore the brunt of WW2 and was the primary engine of defeat of WW2 Germany (check your history, it's true).
In general France and Germany are bad times and bad I wouldn't call them allies at all.
As far as 1984 is concerned, well it's a dystopian novel.
Have you ever heard of the five eyes?
The five eyes are an anglosphere alliance comprising Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes
They already spy and "oppress" their own people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON
That's why Edward Snowden had to flee the Occidental world.
There's over a billion people in China. If they didn't like their government then their government wouldn't be in charge anymore. Period.
You are judging these other nations by Western values.
There hasn't been a Soviet Union since the 90's.
Russia is a major world power that currently resembles late 19th, early 20th century America during the age of the Robber Barons and the Guilded Age.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron_(industrialist)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age.
Read your history and you will see that we had Oligarchs as well and there was plenty of shenanigans going on with our version of them.
China is a bit different, but their culture is so alien to ours and their history goes back so far it can be difficult for us Westerners to understand it's intricacies.
For example I recently discovered that the Uyghur people came about because of the many Mongol and other northeast invasions of China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghurs
I learned this from the Great Courses and not from Wikipedia. I posted this because it is publicly available.
This explains, but not condones, the Chinese treatment of this population as they are descendants of the people group that kept invading and conquering parts of China over the centuries.
History is important and it's effects ripple forward in time.
The Mediterranean Europeans had the same sort of history with the old Muslim Empires.
The difference is how the European governments treat these people groups today.
In short your premise is faulty because it lacks the historical perspective necessary, is based on a dystopian novel, and mid 20th Century American propaganda.
Think what a decades long friendship could bring and how much humanity could benefit from this friendship and the technology we are developing.
One could say that it's a Star Trek future. :)
Tell us about the great grocery stores in Moscow, please. Food for thought: do you like your iPhone and other creature comforts? You wouldn't have them without America's world leadership and nuclear umbrella.
We wouldn't have our IPhones or most of our consumer goods without China either.
Aren't most of Foxconn's manufacturing facilities located in China?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn
Europe gets most of their natural gas from Russia, without it they would have faced some pretty hard winters.
Wars happen.
America had the French-Indian War, The Revolutionary War, The War of 1812, The Canadian American war, The Indian (Wars against Native Americans) Wars, The Mexican American War and so on...
Heck, we even invaded Canada on three separate occasions. Once in 1775 during the American Revolution, rebel forces invaded Canada, occupying Montreal and attacking the town of Quebec.; once between 1812-1815 during the War of 1812 saw the United States launch a series of land and sea invasions of British North America (now Canada); and once in 1837, saw American rebels from the Hunters’ Lodges invade Canada, with the Battle of the Windmill being a notable event.
Are we giving California, New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas back to Mexico?
Are we giving back the land snatched from the Native Americans?
Have we apologized and made recompense to Canada?
To be honest we are not likely to be giving any land back to anyone or apologizing to Canada.
To try and take the moral high-ground with Russia reeks of historical hypocrisy.
Yes war is bad and in general unwarranted, but all countries throughout history have fallen into the trap of war.
Like Battlestar Galactica said, “All this has happened before, and all of it will happen again”.
Only he can make the decision because those are the rules, they can't make him do it.
I am sure they are also considering not alientating all the people that don't want them to do this..
In the Democrat Party the delegates do not have to vote for the nominee if they find it violates their conscience.
They can put pressure on the delegates not to vote for him.
If the delegates don't vote for him then he is not the nominee.
Yes, but, I have read they are the most loyal to him, I am not sure that is going to work either...
People who are anti Biden staying on, really underestimate how many people don't agree, and by my internet people alone, adn there are more who aren't even on the internet...they aren't going to just quietly let something happen without a fight.
The latest polls I've seen say that 63% of the Democrat voters want him to step aside and 73% of Independent voters want him to as well.
Pelosi was recently reported to have gone over these polls and has presented her findings to the President.
I live by the numbers and also the feeling I get from society as a whole.
The numbers say voters want him to drop out and the societal feelings I'm getting are saying the same.
There are people here and other places, who say they wish it was someone else, but ,they will still vote for him if he stays. I don't think lthey polled those people. They didn't ask them if they would vote for him either way...only that they wish he would step away, that isn't the same thing.
You don't know society as a whole , no one does, and it isn't the same everywhere...I live in OH, it is not like a swing state for instance
And I know a lot of Dems who aren't online at all AND haven't been polled, we talked about it...
There are more non poltiical, and non polled people than the reverse, the online people are just the loudest ( On WAPO and NYT, also, the group is pretty big that perfers he run. They even shut down NYT's comment section due to NYT's bashing Biden and treating Trump with respect.
I'm across the river in KY, myself. :)
As far as knowing society as a whole I get a general vibe on it.
I've been voting since 1991 and I've called every single winner of the Presidential race since then.
Clinton won when he played the sax on the Arsenio Hall show.
GW Bush won his 1st election because of his personality (for example SNL did a sketch where Al Gore was portrayed as a robot. I called it then.)
GW Bush won his 2nd term because he gave people something to vote for and Kerry just asked that people vote for him to get rid of Bush. (People like to have something to believe in. They're aching for it.)
Obama won his first term because he offered people hope.
Obama won his 2nd term because he still offered people hope.
Trump won his first term because he offered people the chance to clean up Washington (and also because he stole Reagans slogan, "Let's Make America Great Again. Yep the Reagan / Bush campaign used the term first and Trump stole it.)
Biden is the only President I've ever seen win a Presidential Election by running a negative campaign with the only offering as being join me to beat Trump).
I called them all.
That is why I'm saying that if they don't replace Biden as the presumptive nominee the Democrats will lose and Trump will retake the White House.
To me and my experience it's that simple.
I'm pro the Democrats promoting my Governor, Andy Beshear, as either the Presidential nominee or as the Vice Presidential Nominee.
He is a GenXer, he pulled KY out of the pandemic against the will of the Republican Legislature, and made our economy better, and now I saw on the news that KY has a $1 billion dollar budget surplus.
Budget surplus (meaning real dollars), and not a surplus on our deficit spending like Clinton had.
He's the kind of candidate that we need to beat Trump in 2024.
He's positive, young, and would give people something to vote for and someone to rally around.
Just my thoughts.
Theya ern't going to use the 25th, for one reason they don't have the votes, for another they are not going to embarass him like that...it isn't an option, they would have to accuse him or things they would have to prove are true..I have read multiple explanations why that isn't going to work
What isn't it an option?
If former President Trump is truly a threat then the 25th amendment should be on the table.
Like Mona said in the podcast, it's not about President Biden, his pride, or his ego. It's about beating former President Trump.
Do they want to beat former President Trump or coddle President Biden? You can't have both.
Proving it, I'm not sure that they have to prove anything. The text of the 25th Amendment doesn't mention having to offer proof of unfitness. It says that they half to send a letter to get the process started.
But as far as proof goes we have video and audio footage of several of his interviews; not to mention his infamous debate.
In this audio and video footage it's abundantly clear to any clear thinking person, especially on who has had a parent or grandparent go through mental decline via Alzheimer's, Senile Dementia, or just getting old, that President Biden is unfit to currently be serving as President of the United States of America, much less be re-elected as President.
Now I understand that people wish to be nice and not embarrass the President, but at this point they've given him every opportunity to step aside and he won't, willingly (I suspect that he doesn't have the mental wherewithal to make that decision).
I also suspect the people needed to do so don't want to embarrass the President out of self interest, especially the ones that are 60+ years old themselves as this could call their own mental acuity into debate which could cause them to lose power.
I've got 3 other names for you. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Dianne Feinstein, and Mitch McConnell.
Justice Ginsburg clung to office to long, even as former President Obama asked her to retire.
Dianne Feinstein was caught on video voting on something and just said Aye when she was told by an aide just to say Aye.
Mitch McConnell froze up a few times on national television (at least he had the good graced to step down from his leadership position).
Do we really want a repeat of these with the current President?
How badly do we want former President Trump to lose the election?
How much of a threat to democracy do we really believe he is?
I'm going RFK Jr unless the Democrats field another, 55yr old or younger, candidate.
He may not be awesome, but at least he can finish his thoughts and bring forth the case as to why he should be elected.
Thank you, my concerns are more about what I think is moral and the right thing to do and loyalty...I don't think he is as bad as some do at all...
He has to be unable to do the job for the 25th amendment to be used, it has to proven and they have to have a majority of votes...
WSJ has a piece about it, but, I am not a subscriber so I can only post this part:
The risk isn’t zero if Mr. Biden stays in power, but the alternatives are hardly compelling. Read the 25th Amendment. It isn’t designed for removing a leader who doesn’t think himself incapacitated. Deeming a President unable to perform his duties requires a declaration to that effect from the Vice President and a majority of the cabinet, all of whom have some loyalty to the man in the Oval Office. Is Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg ready to throw Mr. Biden under the electric bus?
I like to read the amendments and see what they actually say which is why I posted article 4 of the 25th amendment.
So, for specificity article 4, paragraph 2, lines 3 and 4 state:
"unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide".
The key line for me is, "or of such other body as Congress may by law provide."
So in effect it's not just the Vice President and the cabinet, but also "or of such other body as Congress may by law provide".
I don't think they would pass that law...the R's kinda want Biden to stay in for one thing...
I know :(
They want him to stay in because they know a Biden / Harris ticket wins them the election.
I've even heard they intend to sue (somehow?) if Biden gets pulled off the ticket.
It's crazy.
Good debate, though :)
On MAGA "isolationism" and caring about China more than Russia, I have to sometimes wonder whether or not we'll go to war with China in the future not because of any kind of MAGA cares about Taiwanese independence, but because so much of our tech-heavy economy/markets are so reliant on offshore semi-conductor manufacturing that the pro-billionaire party would gladly sacrifice tens of thousands of American lives in a war with China to keep the tech oligarch's pockets flush via maintaining geopolitical semi-conductor hegemony. Or am I being too cynical?
Given how transactional Trump is, it is not unreasonable to believe he might sell US foreign policy to the highest bidder, and his Silicon Valley supporters would be hard to outbid.
God personally intervened to make sure that bullet didn't hit Trump but he sat by and let kids in countless mass shootings got cut down by AR15 fire. He also took a long nap during the Holocaust.
I doubt Trump was taking a nap during the Holocaust, because he wasn’t born yet.
I was referring to god taking a nap during the holocaust.
Oh, gotcha.
The Democrats are leaderless at the worst possible moment in history.
The news is moving so fast that podcasts must be released on the same day they are recorded.
We've had an avalanche of news is last 24 hours that make this discussion .... not uninteresting, but frustrating. I know that "Beg to Differ" is a week in review format, with folks scratching their chins and putting events in context.
WTF Mona! I cannot believe that anyone still thinks that Trump goes away in four years. He's going to figure out a way to stay on just like Putin and Xi. Easy if you do not believe the Constitution is enforceable.
I don't know. The guy is declining fast and a NYTimes doc said the biggest decline typically occurs between ages 77 and 82. He has these years to look forward to. They will probably try to groom a new Trump.
When Boris Yel'tsin was in decline, he paved the way for Putin to succeed him in exchange for a promise not to investigate or prosecute him. Trump might look for the same kind of arrangement.
I agree. Even the orange psychopath--God's very warrior--can't outrun the second law of thermodynamics. In four years, he'll be even more diminished, hopefully so diminisehd even the MAGA jackels will turn on him.
We need more of Mona's dog.