I don't understand the animosity towards Mike Pence. I don't like Pence. He did the absolute minimum, which was upholding his oath to protect and preserve the Constitution.
But that is not nothing. He did so when so many around him were violating theirs. And in so doing he staved off a Constitutional crisis and maybe much, much worse.
As noted , Pence had already shown, on Jan. 6, where he stood on the question of him disqualifying or ignoring any states' certified electoral votes. And therefore implicitly he had already said that Trump was wrong. But I think his statements yesterday were significant because he included the powerful term "unAmerican." Even more so, he said that the electoral decision rested with the American people, not one person. The natural assumption is that the "one person," under Trump's notion, is the Vice President, but it could also be read to refer to Trump himself. And that flips Trump's typical demagogic, tyrant-aspiring notion that he is synonymous with The People while the mainstream media (for instance) is "the enemy of The People." So Pence's statement can easily be read to be an assertion that, on at least that occasion, Trump was acting as the enemy of The People.
When I see heroes on the news, I always like to practice in my mind what I would do, so that if called upon, I would (I hope) do the right thing. Is political courage as difficult as it appears? People like Fiona Hill, Maria Yovanovitch and Alexander Vindman seemed to have been able to find it. Where is the difference between them and so many of our political leaders?
Agree...but the difference is those mentioned are not elected officials, who are constantly worried about being re-elected and needing to continue feeding at the lobbyist troughs.
Charlie, Great perspective on Pence: we don’t give gold bars to those who refuse to run over people in wheel chairs! Pence is a pusillanimous pussy, unwilling to stand up to his former partner whose mob had constructed a gallow and was voicing their desire to hang him. To which Pence said nothing! Pence has the spine of a chocolate eclair!
I get all that with Pence but are we starting to sound like the Progressive Left where the perfect is the enemy of the good. Why not run with it? Yay! We're fucking overjoyed. I realize there are few soft Repubs out there but still. Not good optics. Run with it.
Well you can do that if your next sentence after "Good Job" is "Ok Mike, buddy, now lets take the next step"
I think for me any way, it comes down to "fool me once , shame on you, fool me twice shame on me."
Remember when the sinner confessed his sins to Jesus, Jesus said Go and sin no more" Not, "thats ok don't worry about it. " So given his past performance a little penance is appropriate.
All of the above commentators have a point. I think it's fair to say that Pence did the very minimum he could get away with, defending himself, primarily, from Trump's attacks, while failing to finally jump off the fence he's been straddling.
It's also fair to say, as Stuart Stevens did the other day, that Pence sat in the White House while this coup was being planned. He knew what Trump and his minions were up to. He didn't call the FBI. He didn't make a public statement. He kept quiet. Until it was clear Trump's coup would fail. Only then did he act.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he did the right thing. In the end. But that's a VERY low hurdle to jump. It certainly doesn't make him a hero. He only looks like one because so many others in his party are still not doing anything.
It appears like a lot of Republicans are waiting to see "how this plays out". Can't wait to hear..."Oh darn....looks like the insurrection is going take. Good thing I straddled the fence though".
Pence’s little speech raises what seems to me to be an important question about electoral strategy, which is: how to decide about supporting Republicans or the Republican Party at all?
For the upcoming midterms, I have seen never-Trump Republican groups working to support “moderate” Republican candidates, especially against Trumpy ones. And then we have the entire Dem apparatus trying to defeat pretty much all Republicans. If we take the essence of these two positions, the first presumes that electing moderate Republicans is good and will dilute the impact and influence of Trumpsters. The second presumes that the fewer Republicans elected, the better for our country. These are not very compatible and may be working at cross-purposes, depending on how you look at the elections.
Given that so-called moderate Republicans (with a couple of strong exceptions — but only a couple) have essentially been intimidated into acquiesce with the Trumpist takeover of the party, what good does it do to support a few more of them? Given that the RNC, with barely a whimper of “concern” from moderate Republicans (which makes no difference, anyhow), has used their resolution against Cheney and Kinzinger to endorse political intimidation, mayhem, and violence, how can one justify supporting the Republican Party in any way?
I understand the concept that having more moderates might help to balance the wackos — IF the Republicans don’t take control of either or both Houses. But this looks like a difficult election for Dems holding one or both, so shouldn’t anti-Trump Republicans and independents bite the bullet and work and vote for Dems in this cycle — at least so that, perhaps with a solid loss at the polls, the Republican wackos will lose traction, giving moderates the opening they need to wrestle control back from the wackos?
The bottom line is: what is the theory of the moderate Republican case for trying to win races in the upcoming elections? What is the strategy that can bring back a viable Republican Party such that we have two parties committed to American Democracy? I have yet to see any real serious discussion of this. I think you guys can and should lead this discussion.
Pence's political ambitions are toast. Even if Trump doesn't run in 2024 he will never endorse Pence. It's not to late for him to get on the right side of history. Tell the full story to the J6 committee. Unfortunately it's not in his cowardly DNA.
Perhaps more than most I have a bit on an insight into pre-Pence by being a late-in-life Hoosier having lived through his underwhelming term as governor of our state.
Let me set the stage. Pence was born and raised as a Catholic (RC). He decided to attend a religious college (same one as Woody Harrelson - talk about polar opposites). He was originally inspired by people John F. Kennedy (obvious) and Martin Luther King Jr. Easy to state in his hometown that has a 3.7% black population.
While in college, Pence left the Catholic Church and became an evangelical, born-again Christian, to the great disappointment of his mother, when he married once married (also former Catholic) Karen Batten-Whittaker).
Note: parents and siblings had no problem with the Pence businesses profiting from sales of lottery tickets, alcohol, and "loose" cigarettes, which outraged Mike and Karen, while accepting their share of the family business profits (Think Captain Renault from the movie Casablanca).
Mike realizing he has no discernable skills after receiving a law degree, turned to an overwhelming AM-radio "religio-consevatative" radio station in southern Indiana (i.e Northern Kentucky) to offer a Limbaugh type hate-show, except Mike mused he was "decafe" Rush.
That "humorous" throw away says everything about Pence. As governor of Indiana:
~ His ten years of Congressional service offered not one of his introduced legislative bills into law.
~ He "lead" from behind, getting somewhat tepid Republican support, before dying the death of reality.
~ He was willing to get his taking points from actual thinkers, until the populous went batshit. And then he went tepid again.
~He often tried to change his horrific policies stands with a softened versions, explaining why people really didn't understand him!
~ He took credit for popular policies that he stood against!
Pence is an empty vessel that "Mother" fills in order to to use him as a way for her to move up in the hierarchy of 20% (republican percentage of American voters) of the American population. He was on his way to political Palookaville until Trump offer him the role of shoeshine boy.
Why anyone would take this loser in so many ways seriously is mystifying.
From Jane Mayer's book, Deep Money: "Mike Pence, had been Charles Koch’s first choice for the presidency in 2012 and a major recipient of Koch campaign contributions." She goes on to outline both Marc Short's connection, and Mike Pompeo's, to the Kochs. I don't think anything is happening without the Koch machine involvement.
Heh. Pence's circumstances of bravely following the Constitution remind me of Chris Rock's famous black people hate n___s routine.
" You know the worst thing about n___s? A n___ will brag about things you're supposed to do. A n___ will take credit for things a normal man just does. Like a n___ be sayin', "I take care of my kids." [Yelling] you're supposed to you dumb motherf__ker!!!
Mr. Rock is an unapologetic "Just do your Job, MF" He is one of my daughter's favorite in dealing with in-line responsibility.
One of her comments she offered while serving an eight-year tour on a U.S. Navy destroyer as a Navigation Petty Officer.
Unable to put up with the prattle of a seaman, she asked:
"Shipmate, I have a few questions:
#1 - can you or can't you perform the duties of your designated rank?"
#2 - if you can, then why the f*** don't you do it?
#3 - if you can't who the f***took your ASVAB exam? Because you certainly are not capable of doing even the simplest of things on the bridge...like polishing the brass!"
Indeed! I have to admit that even as a post grad I ofted many an f-bomb during her formative years. She seemed to take to it, which made a natural for the Navy.
Although I was on a first name basis with the Vice Principal of Disciple of discipline, he assured me she was a free-spirit "good-bad, not evil."
Furthermore, she joined the Navy out of middle\upper middle class high school because she saw in her athletic teammates who went on to college a dead-end for some. Her line was "I don't want to major in drugging and drinking." (not to say she was innocent of both.
Alexandra is a firm believer that all high school grads should have at least one year of actual full-time service in some way...military, educational, or social to force young Americans into social interaction, and another year incrementally in similar service.
Wise beyond her pre-25 years when she told me that.
Bannon: Pence is "ratting" Trump out. Not lying. "Ratting". Gangsters. What a Hell they will make of America when they get back in power with only their malice and ruthlessness as constraint.
I have maybe a little sympathy for Pence, but only a tiny bit. He is a fool whose return for surrendering his soul turned out to be a hollow, papier-macher counterfeit piniata with no candy inside. Still prisoner of the corrupt appetite that allowed them to gull him in the first place, he ever longs for the promised nugatory reward. Yet the stench of knowing his acts have parted him forever from any hope of attainment fills his nostrils with each breath.
And this is forever. Unlike an opiate addict, he has not even the prospect of going through cold turkey to a place of less anguish. The longing only intensifies with knowledge it is beyond reach.
I think of him as a kind of madman whose drug abuse has afflicted him with incessant voices. that taunt him for his folly, like implacable furies. The only thing he can do is try once in a while to say something aloud to sort of drown them out. But of course to no avail. And try to pretend that the horrible story really never actually happened, or it's an entirely different story with some sort of fifth act redemption because it's part of an inscrutable Plan. What you tell yourself knowing it is false.
And if he is actually the sort of Christian he purports to be, he necessarily worries that the Hell he has made for this may be followed by a Hell to come.
We've had this conversation about former Vice President Putz before. I understand the need for allies in a high stakes struggle, such as the one in which those who believe in constitutional, liberal democracy as the best guarantor of our freedom and liberties currently find ourselves. But I expect any contribution from the former #2 in that cause will be about as significant as Vatican City's contribution against the Axis in WWII. Perhaps even less so, which of course would require a minus sign in front of any numerical value that might be assigned to it.
Every little bit helps, I suppose. But I wouldn't quantify Pence's recent words as even that much. A simple, self-serving statement of fact, nothing more. But if you want to help out, Mikey, the invitation is certainly there. All ya' gotta' do is grow a spine and some testes. Hell, a couple of vertrabrae and a testis will do. It doesn't even need to be a very big one. And then just open your yap and simply speak the truth for a change. But of course, that would require actually choosing a side, wouldn't it?
Anything short of that...I'm with Lewis G. All day long, and twice on Sunday.
There's no point "welcoming" Pence to a cause he hasn't shown much (public) desire to join. But you can still deliver an honest verdict on his behavior.
As I once mentioned, Ann Coulter presents a more intriguing case. She's been ragging relentlessly on Trump for nearly two years, but for reasons which would probably make many Bulwark members blanch. Then again, you are a "broad coalition."
Question: If either Coulter or Pence were secret Bulwark members, would if ever be ethical to out them? 👹
How can I help Kasza and his NMRG heroes?
I don't understand the animosity towards Mike Pence. I don't like Pence. He did the absolute minimum, which was upholding his oath to protect and preserve the Constitution.
But that is not nothing. He did so when so many around him were violating theirs. And in so doing he staved off a Constitutional crisis and maybe much, much worse.
As noted , Pence had already shown, on Jan. 6, where he stood on the question of him disqualifying or ignoring any states' certified electoral votes. And therefore implicitly he had already said that Trump was wrong. But I think his statements yesterday were significant because he included the powerful term "unAmerican." Even more so, he said that the electoral decision rested with the American people, not one person. The natural assumption is that the "one person," under Trump's notion, is the Vice President, but it could also be read to refer to Trump himself. And that flips Trump's typical demagogic, tyrant-aspiring notion that he is synonymous with The People while the mainstream media (for instance) is "the enemy of The People." So Pence's statement can easily be read to be an assertion that, on at least that occasion, Trump was acting as the enemy of The People.
True, but way too complex a web of rationale for Trump's boobwazie.
When I see heroes on the news, I always like to practice in my mind what I would do, so that if called upon, I would (I hope) do the right thing. Is political courage as difficult as it appears? People like Fiona Hill, Maria Yovanovitch and Alexander Vindman seemed to have been able to find it. Where is the difference between them and so many of our political leaders?
Agree...but the difference is those mentioned are not elected officials, who are constantly worried about being re-elected and needing to continue feeding at the lobbyist troughs.
And why don’t journalists ever question them about the lack thereof?
That was kinda what I was yelling at the TV this morning, Then I remembered there is a reason I don't turn the TV on, on Sunday morning *sigh*
Charlie, Great perspective on Pence: we don’t give gold bars to those who refuse to run over people in wheel chairs! Pence is a pusillanimous pussy, unwilling to stand up to his former partner whose mob had constructed a gallow and was voicing their desire to hang him. To which Pence said nothing! Pence has the spine of a chocolate eclair!
Allowing the bar to be Pence's level is how we got Trump
And I believe Pence is the Koch machine's choice. I don't think Pence or Marc Short are doing anything right now that Koch doesn't tell them to do.
I get all that with Pence but are we starting to sound like the Progressive Left where the perfect is the enemy of the good. Why not run with it? Yay! We're fucking overjoyed. I realize there are few soft Repubs out there but still. Not good optics. Run with it.
Well you can do that if your next sentence after "Good Job" is "Ok Mike, buddy, now lets take the next step"
I think for me any way, it comes down to "fool me once , shame on you, fool me twice shame on me."
Remember when the sinner confessed his sins to Jesus, Jesus said Go and sin no more" Not, "thats ok don't worry about it. " So given his past performance a little penance is appropriate.
All of the above commentators have a point. I think it's fair to say that Pence did the very minimum he could get away with, defending himself, primarily, from Trump's attacks, while failing to finally jump off the fence he's been straddling.
It's also fair to say, as Stuart Stevens did the other day, that Pence sat in the White House while this coup was being planned. He knew what Trump and his minions were up to. He didn't call the FBI. He didn't make a public statement. He kept quiet. Until it was clear Trump's coup would fail. Only then did he act.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he did the right thing. In the end. But that's a VERY low hurdle to jump. It certainly doesn't make him a hero. He only looks like one because so many others in his party are still not doing anything.
It appears like a lot of Republicans are waiting to see "how this plays out". Can't wait to hear..."Oh darn....looks like the insurrection is going take. Good thing I straddled the fence though".
If Pence has cleared a dismally low bar and wants to continue to play we need to raise the bar.
Pence’s little speech raises what seems to me to be an important question about electoral strategy, which is: how to decide about supporting Republicans or the Republican Party at all?
For the upcoming midterms, I have seen never-Trump Republican groups working to support “moderate” Republican candidates, especially against Trumpy ones. And then we have the entire Dem apparatus trying to defeat pretty much all Republicans. If we take the essence of these two positions, the first presumes that electing moderate Republicans is good and will dilute the impact and influence of Trumpsters. The second presumes that the fewer Republicans elected, the better for our country. These are not very compatible and may be working at cross-purposes, depending on how you look at the elections.
Given that so-called moderate Republicans (with a couple of strong exceptions — but only a couple) have essentially been intimidated into acquiesce with the Trumpist takeover of the party, what good does it do to support a few more of them? Given that the RNC, with barely a whimper of “concern” from moderate Republicans (which makes no difference, anyhow), has used their resolution against Cheney and Kinzinger to endorse political intimidation, mayhem, and violence, how can one justify supporting the Republican Party in any way?
I understand the concept that having more moderates might help to balance the wackos — IF the Republicans don’t take control of either or both Houses. But this looks like a difficult election for Dems holding one or both, so shouldn’t anti-Trump Republicans and independents bite the bullet and work and vote for Dems in this cycle — at least so that, perhaps with a solid loss at the polls, the Republican wackos will lose traction, giving moderates the opening they need to wrestle control back from the wackos?
The bottom line is: what is the theory of the moderate Republican case for trying to win races in the upcoming elections? What is the strategy that can bring back a viable Republican Party such that we have two parties committed to American Democracy? I have yet to see any real serious discussion of this. I think you guys can and should lead this discussion.
If not you, who? If not now, when?
Pence's political ambitions are toast. Even if Trump doesn't run in 2024 he will never endorse Pence. It's not to late for him to get on the right side of history. Tell the full story to the J6 committee. Unfortunately it's not in his cowardly DNA.
Charlie,
Great analysis of the aspects of Pence's speech.
Perhaps more than most I have a bit on an insight into pre-Pence by being a late-in-life Hoosier having lived through his underwhelming term as governor of our state.
Let me set the stage. Pence was born and raised as a Catholic (RC). He decided to attend a religious college (same one as Woody Harrelson - talk about polar opposites). He was originally inspired by people John F. Kennedy (obvious) and Martin Luther King Jr. Easy to state in his hometown that has a 3.7% black population.
While in college, Pence left the Catholic Church and became an evangelical, born-again Christian, to the great disappointment of his mother, when he married once married (also former Catholic) Karen Batten-Whittaker).
Note: parents and siblings had no problem with the Pence businesses profiting from sales of lottery tickets, alcohol, and "loose" cigarettes, which outraged Mike and Karen, while accepting their share of the family business profits (Think Captain Renault from the movie Casablanca).
Mike realizing he has no discernable skills after receiving a law degree, turned to an overwhelming AM-radio "religio-consevatative" radio station in southern Indiana (i.e Northern Kentucky) to offer a Limbaugh type hate-show, except Mike mused he was "decafe" Rush.
That "humorous" throw away says everything about Pence. As governor of Indiana:
~ His ten years of Congressional service offered not one of his introduced legislative bills into law.
~ He "lead" from behind, getting somewhat tepid Republican support, before dying the death of reality.
~ He was willing to get his taking points from actual thinkers, until the populous went batshit. And then he went tepid again.
~He often tried to change his horrific policies stands with a softened versions, explaining why people really didn't understand him!
~ He took credit for popular policies that he stood against!
Pence is an empty vessel that "Mother" fills in order to to use him as a way for her to move up in the hierarchy of 20% (republican percentage of American voters) of the American population. He was on his way to political Palookaville until Trump offer him the role of shoeshine boy.
Why anyone would take this loser in so many ways seriously is mystifying.
From Jane Mayer's book, Deep Money: "Mike Pence, had been Charles Koch’s first choice for the presidency in 2012 and a major recipient of Koch campaign contributions." She goes on to outline both Marc Short's connection, and Mike Pompeo's, to the Kochs. I don't think anything is happening without the Koch machine involvement.
Heh. Pence's circumstances of bravely following the Constitution remind me of Chris Rock's famous black people hate n___s routine.
" You know the worst thing about n___s? A n___ will brag about things you're supposed to do. A n___ will take credit for things a normal man just does. Like a n___ be sayin', "I take care of my kids." [Yelling] you're supposed to you dumb motherf__ker!!!
Hobie,
FANTASTIC!!!
Mr. Rock is an unapologetic "Just do your Job, MF" He is one of my daughter's favorite in dealing with in-line responsibility.
One of her comments she offered while serving an eight-year tour on a U.S. Navy destroyer as a Navigation Petty Officer.
Unable to put up with the prattle of a seaman, she asked:
"Shipmate, I have a few questions:
#1 - can you or can't you perform the duties of your designated rank?"
#2 - if you can, then why the f*** don't you do it?
#3 - if you can't who the f***took your ASVAB exam? Because you certainly are not capable of doing even the simplest of things on the bridge...like polishing the brass!"
I like her! Plainspoken, "not-on-my-watch" kinda petty officer!
Indeed! I have to admit that even as a post grad I ofted many an f-bomb during her formative years. She seemed to take to it, which made a natural for the Navy.
Although I was on a first name basis with the Vice Principal of Disciple of discipline, he assured me she was a free-spirit "good-bad, not evil."
Furthermore, she joined the Navy out of middle\upper middle class high school because she saw in her athletic teammates who went on to college a dead-end for some. Her line was "I don't want to major in drugging and drinking." (not to say she was innocent of both.
Alexandra is a firm believer that all high school grads should have at least one year of actual full-time service in some way...military, educational, or social to force young Americans into social interaction, and another year incrementally in similar service.
Wise beyond her pre-25 years when she told me that.
I agree...I think everyone would benefit from one or two year full time stint of service, the young people and the country.
I agree, too. :)
Bannon: Pence is "ratting" Trump out. Not lying. "Ratting". Gangsters. What a Hell they will make of America when they get back in power with only their malice and ruthlessness as constraint.
I have maybe a little sympathy for Pence, but only a tiny bit. He is a fool whose return for surrendering his soul turned out to be a hollow, papier-macher counterfeit piniata with no candy inside. Still prisoner of the corrupt appetite that allowed them to gull him in the first place, he ever longs for the promised nugatory reward. Yet the stench of knowing his acts have parted him forever from any hope of attainment fills his nostrils with each breath.
And this is forever. Unlike an opiate addict, he has not even the prospect of going through cold turkey to a place of less anguish. The longing only intensifies with knowledge it is beyond reach.
I think of him as a kind of madman whose drug abuse has afflicted him with incessant voices. that taunt him for his folly, like implacable furies. The only thing he can do is try once in a while to say something aloud to sort of drown them out. But of course to no avail. And try to pretend that the horrible story really never actually happened, or it's an entirely different story with some sort of fifth act redemption because it's part of an inscrutable Plan. What you tell yourself knowing it is false.
And if he is actually the sort of Christian he purports to be, he necessarily worries that the Hell he has made for this may be followed by a Hell to come.
What a fuck-up!
Excellent point on "ratting" meaning that one's comments are consequential.
But from the criminal mind it means, why the hell are you giving us up to the law?
We've had this conversation about former Vice President Putz before. I understand the need for allies in a high stakes struggle, such as the one in which those who believe in constitutional, liberal democracy as the best guarantor of our freedom and liberties currently find ourselves. But I expect any contribution from the former #2 in that cause will be about as significant as Vatican City's contribution against the Axis in WWII. Perhaps even less so, which of course would require a minus sign in front of any numerical value that might be assigned to it.
Every little bit helps, I suppose. But I wouldn't quantify Pence's recent words as even that much. A simple, self-serving statement of fact, nothing more. But if you want to help out, Mikey, the invitation is certainly there. All ya' gotta' do is grow a spine and some testes. Hell, a couple of vertrabrae and a testis will do. It doesn't even need to be a very big one. And then just open your yap and simply speak the truth for a change. But of course, that would require actually choosing a side, wouldn't it?
Anything short of that...I'm with Lewis G. All day long, and twice on Sunday.
There's no point "welcoming" Pence to a cause he hasn't shown much (public) desire to join. But you can still deliver an honest verdict on his behavior.
As I once mentioned, Ann Coulter presents a more intriguing case. She's been ragging relentlessly on Trump for nearly two years, but for reasons which would probably make many Bulwark members blanch. Then again, you are a "broad coalition."
Question: If either Coulter or Pence were secret Bulwark members, would if ever be ethical to out them? 👹