The Atlantic's David Frum joins to discuss the debate debacle and what comes next? Can Biden be persuaded to drop out? Also, a look at two Supreme Court cases. Highlights / Lowlights David: Slain Gazan named as Doctors Without Borders staffer was Islamic Jihad rocket maker
Don't any of you nay sayers re Biden remember how much antipathyHarry Truman faced in 1948. It was almost axiomatic that Dewey would win. Truman got on his train and made a grueling multiple stop, multiple speeches from the back of the train car to audiences at the whistle stops ,and won in a landslide. Lots of betting money lost on that election. My contention is that Biden ,must ,if he can, get out on the hustings starting now. If he cannot then we have evidence that he is too frail and feeble of body and mind .i firmly believe that the dramatic ( if it indeed was dramatic ie not witnessed by staffers daily) change in Bidens demeanor and cognitive state was somehow induced by ??( leave that for the investigators). Lyndon Johnson in his run for Congress travelled the hinterland of Texas to make himself known and won his race in Texas bringing him to Washington. It takes hard work, but America is at stake and he has lots of positives to sell to the American people.
Bill, Damon, and Linda continue to be some of my favorite voices at The Bulwark and their opinions this episode were great and very closely align with my own.
Glad the PIJ/DWB "worker" came up at the end. It shows you the dual-role nature of insurgent fighters really well. Insurgents are like a grotesque version of super heroes that have normal day jobs--Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, Peter Parker, etc.--but then clock out and put on the magazine bandoleer and pickup the AK-47 instead of putting on a spandex suit--although they often do wear masks to protect their identities in both cases.
Could David Frum explain why the fisherman had no legal recourse fighting regulatory decisions by a government agency but their case still was decided by the Supreme Court?
Under the Chevron decision, the courts must defer to the agency's interpretation of the laws under which the agency is authorized to regulate. That leaves no accountability for an agency that interprets its authorizing legislation in unreasonable ways.
Just listened to this today, against my better judgement since what i hear here is not all that different than opinions I've heard all weekend, all of which were put forth with just as much certainty. How can so many people who disagree with each other also be so certain of what they believe? If that isn't a statement on our times, I'm not sure what is.
Not really what i came to say. "Betrayal" is much too strong a word for Biden and the Democrats for how we got here. One, this decision was never an easy one. There was never a clear-cut case that doing X or Y would ensure or even increase the likelihood of success. Two, we are here in large part due to the repeated refusal of the Republican Party *and* a significant portion of the electorate to turn away from Trump, despite ample reasons to do so.
I refuse to accept that this should be all about poor candidates, and I refuse to use words such as "betrayal" or to ascribe a lack of sincere belief or understanding of the stakes to the people who are simply trying to do the right thing. To suggest to you that you need to do the same is not denying the problem that we are in.
Mona - one detail that was missing from the calculation of a new democratic candidate’s ability two defeat Trump is that Trump also has cognitive issues. I have yet to read a professional who does not recognize that Trump’s language difficulties are symptoms of dementia. Now that more people are tuning in we are likely to see more of Trump’s deficits. What the medical experts emphasize is how these symptoms wax and wane.
Mona!! Biden is not “disabled”. He was fine the next day. May I remind you all that he is doing the job right now ably.
He has just got back from overseas. There has been no backgrounding and you know there would have been if there had been an issue.
It was one bad night. Him looking off was him looking towards the moderators. That’s where they were and if nothing else Biden showed what a better man he was when he walked down and shook the hands of the moderators where trump lumbered offstage without acknowledgment to a NK style welcome from his minions.
Please interview @DutyToWarn on twitter Psychologist John Gartner. He is an expert in frontal dementia and has a show on YouTube called Shrinking Trump. He can explain the difference between the two men.
But the difference is less clear now. Neither one should be running for office. It seems to me we either we think a president needs to have an intact brain or we don’t. The GOP is trying to invoke the twenty-fifth amendment due to Biden’s performance. Will that force Biden to have an MRI of his head? And do they not realize the dems could do the same if Trump is elected and he starts talking about the big shark/ electrocution dilemma at the Chrissus sic party?
I think the assessment of Biden has changed after the debate. The few doctors who have weighed in seem to be leaning toward a neurodegenerative disorder. A British doctor saw symptoms of Parkinson’s and said that explains the variation in function.
It doesn’t really matter. The point several have made is that symptoms wax and wane. Trump had a great night. He zones out at times, slurs words and confuses people. One doctor described the debate as a stress test but one a president should be able to endure. A speech doesn’t pose the same challenge as a debate.
I agree that neither should be the nominees. The difference to me is that it’s easy for trump to “debate” because to trump the truth is meaningless to him. He lies in every answer. He lies like we breathe. His ignorance is also disqualifying.
Is it really a debate when one person barks out one of three distorted themes? Poor Biden. I like to imagine how Obama or Bill Clinton or would have fired in at Trump. Trump could decompensate if he has to answer any of journalists’ tough questions.
This is one of my favorite podcasts and I listen every week, so thank you all for the informative and insightful discussion. I just read on CNN that the Biden family is trying to blame everyone but the president for Thursday night's debate performance. This is perhaps natural human nature but still ridiculous. The ultimate responsibility for failure lies with the president. He is obviously significantly diminished both physically and mentally, and no amount of preparation could ever overcome this. It is clear to me that Biden can no longer win re-election. He was already behind before the debate; and now his chances of victory are zero. With this in mind, the only alternative is to replace him with someone else. If he refuses, then all top donors need to cut off the money. I'm not sending another dime to Biden or any other democrat until he agrees to step aside. I'm responding to all fundraising requests by stating this. By remaining in the race Biden is being incredibly selfish. His family, especially his wife, are betraying the country by encouraging him to continue his doomed campaign.
While I agree with your decision to not contribute any further to the Biden campaign, I would not hold back contributing to down ballot races. The House needs to be flipped and the senate held.
With respect to replacing Biden......well, here's a fun idea:
In turbulent times, truth can be a dear friend.
If Biden has mental health challenges the truth is his best friend, the Democratic party’s best friend and democracy’s best friend.
Here’s how:
Biden needs to tell the truth to the American electorate regarding his health.
What 50 million voters witnessed Thursday night was not a cold. Such brazen spin is insulting and reckless. We the people are big enough to be told the truth, and we deserve nothing but the truth, so tell it.
At the same time, all donors but especially big donors, need to turn the donation spigot off as a safety measure to nudge the president for old fashion soul searching.
Biden can embrace the truth and weave it into a narrative that helps the country, the party and his legacy.
Biden saved the country from Trump in 2020.
Biden was a damn good president for four years.
He rolled up his sleeves for the Trump 2024 rematch but due to sudden pressing health concerns it was in the best interest of the country and his life to pull out of the race just before the convention.
Biden could then gracefully not only commit his delegates to an open convention but his unwavering support as well and be a vital part of the campaign up until November 5th.
He could commit his delegates with the understanding that in doing so he and the DNC would pick six initial candidates to “run” for president in July.
After each debate delegates and superdelegates would vote for one candidate to be dismissed from the next debate but all six candidates would be the potential vice presidential candidates. Yes, there's intentional Apprentice irony here - that's why this is so sweet.
There would be five national debates:
July 8th - six candidates
July 12th - five candidates
July 23rd - four candidates
July 26th - three candidates
August 1st - two candidates
August 5th and 6th - zoom virtual convention with the two final candidates with Biden in Philadelphia on August 5th and in Phoenix on August 6th. In each city the two candidates along with Biden would give speeches.
The delegates vote virtually for the nominee by 10 PM EST. At that time the two candidates and President Biden would be in Las Vegas when the nominee is announced.
On August 7th the presidential nominee meets the Ohio August 7th deadline.
Democratic National Convention - Chicago - August 19th - August 22nd
All five candidates speak -at the convention with the understanding that one of them will be chosen as the Vice President.
The convention is not contentious but rather a celebration of Biden and his administration and the passing of the torch is unified and is a symbol of the peaceful transition of power. Defeating Trump as the most unified Democratic Party in the country’s history will be the theme of the convention.
Yes, this is outlandish as hell but it also would work.
It would revolutionize national party conventions.
It would energize the youth vote.
It would consume the national spotlight for two months.
It would educate the American electorate for two months on the Democratic candidates.
The American electorate would be part of the process.
It might just save Democracy and energize the electorate like never before. Just say'n!
I think President Biden has done a very good job as President. But after his dismal debate performance, he went from having a very competitive race with Trump to having no chance of winning. Unless he wants the triumph of Trumpian authoritarianism to be his legacy, the President needs to withdraw his candidacy. All the Democratic consultants’ spin and rationalizations will not fix the indelible negative impact from Biden’s feeble performance. Whatever the difficulties and chaos from choosing a new Democratic nominee at this late date, I believe they will have a better chance of winning than Biden.
Dumb question: Ms. Charen just stated the aggrieved lobster fishermen "couldn't appeal to the courts." So who did? The discussion is before a court, right, about a case that was filed?
Bill Galston is absolutely right. Nobody is going to get Biden to change his mind about running for re-election except for his three closest confidants. And, human nature being what it is, as long as they are in denial, it ain't gonna happen.
Sorry all of you good folks at the Bulwark. I listen to ALL of your political podcasts. But until you calm down and get over your panic from Biden’s debate performance, I just can’t listen to any of your podcasts. No, I’m not blocking anyone or unsubscribing. I’m just going to wait for all of you to come to your senses. All this “Biden must step down” nonsense is only doing damage to the race. How about focusing on Trump’s myriad of lies instead.
Yeah, I agreed with Bill and A.B. last year when they said Biden was too old to run again and should withdraw. But that ship has sailed. Unless Biden dies before November, we're stuck with him as the candidate, and we need to do whatever it takes to get him elected. The Democrats just don't have another candidate who could win the nomination who is more likely than Biden to win the general election. As of now, he still represents our best chance to beat Trump.
Unfortunately, it's not just The Bulwark that's raising the hysteria. Unless you turn off all news, you can't get away from this nonsense.
As folks at the Lincoln project point out - you are giving Trump just what he wants cause Biden had a bad night. Maybe a bit less pearl clutching and a bit more focus on the evils of Trump and all his Gish Galloping b.s. ? Cause 4 months out it is pretty clear we are in for another RBG moment with Biden; he's not going anywhere. But maybe if we focus on the real problem at hand- Trumpfuckery- we will avert a disaster-
Not sure the statement that Biden wanted the debate is entirely accurate - "It was Howard Stern of all people who first got Biden to commit publicly to facing off with Trump again, during the president’s visit to his New York studio in late April. It kicked up the conversation internally about how to handle Trump’s repeated push to debate Biden “any time, any place.” There were even informal, back-channel conversations between the Biden and Trump campaigns that laid the groundwork for both sides agreeing to the June 27 and Sept. 10 faceoffs, according to multiple sources involved." https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/biden-trump-debates-politics-desk-rcna152451
Trump was goading him and knowing the "Biden in the basement" schtick that trump used the first time around - guessing Biden got his dander up and felt he had to answer the challenge. Not much different than the stupidity of 1800s duels to assuage honor.
Don't any of you nay sayers re Biden remember how much antipathyHarry Truman faced in 1948. It was almost axiomatic that Dewey would win. Truman got on his train and made a grueling multiple stop, multiple speeches from the back of the train car to audiences at the whistle stops ,and won in a landslide. Lots of betting money lost on that election. My contention is that Biden ,must ,if he can, get out on the hustings starting now. If he cannot then we have evidence that he is too frail and feeble of body and mind .i firmly believe that the dramatic ( if it indeed was dramatic ie not witnessed by staffers daily) change in Bidens demeanor and cognitive state was somehow induced by ??( leave that for the investigators). Lyndon Johnson in his run for Congress travelled the hinterland of Texas to make himself known and won his race in Texas bringing him to Washington. It takes hard work, but America is at stake and he has lots of positives to sell to the American people.
Bill, Damon, and Linda continue to be some of my favorite voices at The Bulwark and their opinions this episode were great and very closely align with my own.
Glad the PIJ/DWB "worker" came up at the end. It shows you the dual-role nature of insurgent fighters really well. Insurgents are like a grotesque version of super heroes that have normal day jobs--Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, Peter Parker, etc.--but then clock out and put on the magazine bandoleer and pickup the AK-47 instead of putting on a spandex suit--although they often do wear masks to protect their identities in both cases.
I also believe that they can vote in elections like most of us.
Could David Frum explain why the fisherman had no legal recourse fighting regulatory decisions by a government agency but their case still was decided by the Supreme Court?
Under the Chevron decision, the courts must defer to the agency's interpretation of the laws under which the agency is authorized to regulate. That leaves no accountability for an agency that interprets its authorizing legislation in unreasonable ways.
Just listened to this today, against my better judgement since what i hear here is not all that different than opinions I've heard all weekend, all of which were put forth with just as much certainty. How can so many people who disagree with each other also be so certain of what they believe? If that isn't a statement on our times, I'm not sure what is.
Not really what i came to say. "Betrayal" is much too strong a word for Biden and the Democrats for how we got here. One, this decision was never an easy one. There was never a clear-cut case that doing X or Y would ensure or even increase the likelihood of success. Two, we are here in large part due to the repeated refusal of the Republican Party *and* a significant portion of the electorate to turn away from Trump, despite ample reasons to do so.
I refuse to accept that this should be all about poor candidates, and I refuse to use words such as "betrayal" or to ascribe a lack of sincere belief or understanding of the stakes to the people who are simply trying to do the right thing. To suggest to you that you need to do the same is not denying the problem that we are in.
Mona - one detail that was missing from the calculation of a new democratic candidate’s ability two defeat Trump is that Trump also has cognitive issues. I have yet to read a professional who does not recognize that Trump’s language difficulties are symptoms of dementia. Now that more people are tuning in we are likely to see more of Trump’s deficits. What the medical experts emphasize is how these symptoms wax and wane.
Mona!! Biden is not “disabled”. He was fine the next day. May I remind you all that he is doing the job right now ably.
He has just got back from overseas. There has been no backgrounding and you know there would have been if there had been an issue.
It was one bad night. Him looking off was him looking towards the moderators. That’s where they were and if nothing else Biden showed what a better man he was when he walked down and shook the hands of the moderators where trump lumbered offstage without acknowledgment to a NK style welcome from his minions.
If Biden had been the same the next day I might say that there’s a problem but he wasn’t.
Please interview @DutyToWarn on twitter Psychologist John Gartner. He is an expert in frontal dementia and has a show on YouTube called Shrinking Trump. He can explain the difference between the two men.
But the difference is less clear now. Neither one should be running for office. It seems to me we either we think a president needs to have an intact brain or we don’t. The GOP is trying to invoke the twenty-fifth amendment due to Biden’s performance. Will that force Biden to have an MRI of his head? And do they not realize the dems could do the same if Trump is elected and he starts talking about the big shark/ electrocution dilemma at the Chrissus sic party?
I think the assessment of Biden has changed after the debate. The few doctors who have weighed in seem to be leaning toward a neurodegenerative disorder. A British doctor saw symptoms of Parkinson’s and said that explains the variation in function.
Had they seen his rally the next day before they commented?
It doesn’t really matter. The point several have made is that symptoms wax and wane. Trump had a great night. He zones out at times, slurs words and confuses people. One doctor described the debate as a stress test but one a president should be able to endure. A speech doesn’t pose the same challenge as a debate.
I agree that neither should be the nominees. The difference to me is that it’s easy for trump to “debate” because to trump the truth is meaningless to him. He lies in every answer. He lies like we breathe. His ignorance is also disqualifying.
Is it really a debate when one person barks out one of three distorted themes? Poor Biden. I like to imagine how Obama or Bill Clinton or would have fired in at Trump. Trump could decompensate if he has to answer any of journalists’ tough questions.
This is one of my favorite podcasts and I listen every week, so thank you all for the informative and insightful discussion. I just read on CNN that the Biden family is trying to blame everyone but the president for Thursday night's debate performance. This is perhaps natural human nature but still ridiculous. The ultimate responsibility for failure lies with the president. He is obviously significantly diminished both physically and mentally, and no amount of preparation could ever overcome this. It is clear to me that Biden can no longer win re-election. He was already behind before the debate; and now his chances of victory are zero. With this in mind, the only alternative is to replace him with someone else. If he refuses, then all top donors need to cut off the money. I'm not sending another dime to Biden or any other democrat until he agrees to step aside. I'm responding to all fundraising requests by stating this. By remaining in the race Biden is being incredibly selfish. His family, especially his wife, are betraying the country by encouraging him to continue his doomed campaign.
While I agree with your decision to not contribute any further to the Biden campaign, I would not hold back contributing to down ballot races. The House needs to be flipped and the senate held.
With respect to replacing Biden......well, here's a fun idea:
In turbulent times, truth can be a dear friend.
If Biden has mental health challenges the truth is his best friend, the Democratic party’s best friend and democracy’s best friend.
Here’s how:
Biden needs to tell the truth to the American electorate regarding his health.
What 50 million voters witnessed Thursday night was not a cold. Such brazen spin is insulting and reckless. We the people are big enough to be told the truth, and we deserve nothing but the truth, so tell it.
At the same time, all donors but especially big donors, need to turn the donation spigot off as a safety measure to nudge the president for old fashion soul searching.
Biden can embrace the truth and weave it into a narrative that helps the country, the party and his legacy.
Biden saved the country from Trump in 2020.
Biden was a damn good president for four years.
He rolled up his sleeves for the Trump 2024 rematch but due to sudden pressing health concerns it was in the best interest of the country and his life to pull out of the race just before the convention.
Biden could then gracefully not only commit his delegates to an open convention but his unwavering support as well and be a vital part of the campaign up until November 5th.
He could commit his delegates with the understanding that in doing so he and the DNC would pick six initial candidates to “run” for president in July.
After each debate delegates and superdelegates would vote for one candidate to be dismissed from the next debate but all six candidates would be the potential vice presidential candidates. Yes, there's intentional Apprentice irony here - that's why this is so sweet.
There would be five national debates:
July 8th - six candidates
July 12th - five candidates
July 23rd - four candidates
July 26th - three candidates
August 1st - two candidates
August 5th and 6th - zoom virtual convention with the two final candidates with Biden in Philadelphia on August 5th and in Phoenix on August 6th. In each city the two candidates along with Biden would give speeches.
The delegates vote virtually for the nominee by 10 PM EST. At that time the two candidates and President Biden would be in Las Vegas when the nominee is announced.
On August 7th the presidential nominee meets the Ohio August 7th deadline.
Democratic National Convention - Chicago - August 19th - August 22nd
All five candidates speak -at the convention with the understanding that one of them will be chosen as the Vice President.
The convention is not contentious but rather a celebration of Biden and his administration and the passing of the torch is unified and is a symbol of the peaceful transition of power. Defeating Trump as the most unified Democratic Party in the country’s history will be the theme of the convention.
Yes, this is outlandish as hell but it also would work.
It would revolutionize national party conventions.
It would energize the youth vote.
It would consume the national spotlight for two months.
It would educate the American electorate for two months on the Democratic candidates.
The American electorate would be part of the process.
It might just save Democracy and energize the electorate like never before. Just say'n!
I think President Biden has done a very good job as President. But after his dismal debate performance, he went from having a very competitive race with Trump to having no chance of winning. Unless he wants the triumph of Trumpian authoritarianism to be his legacy, the President needs to withdraw his candidacy. All the Democratic consultants’ spin and rationalizations will not fix the indelible negative impact from Biden’s feeble performance. Whatever the difficulties and chaos from choosing a new Democratic nominee at this late date, I believe they will have a better chance of winning than Biden.
Dumb question: Ms. Charen just stated the aggrieved lobster fishermen "couldn't appeal to the courts." So who did? The discussion is before a court, right, about a case that was filed?
Bill Galston is absolutely right. Nobody is going to get Biden to change his mind about running for re-election except for his three closest confidants. And, human nature being what it is, as long as they are in denial, it ain't gonna happen.
Sorry all of you good folks at the Bulwark. I listen to ALL of your political podcasts. But until you calm down and get over your panic from Biden’s debate performance, I just can’t listen to any of your podcasts. No, I’m not blocking anyone or unsubscribing. I’m just going to wait for all of you to come to your senses. All this “Biden must step down” nonsense is only doing damage to the race. How about focusing on Trump’s myriad of lies instead.
Yeah, I agreed with Bill and A.B. last year when they said Biden was too old to run again and should withdraw. But that ship has sailed. Unless Biden dies before November, we're stuck with him as the candidate, and we need to do whatever it takes to get him elected. The Democrats just don't have another candidate who could win the nomination who is more likely than Biden to win the general election. As of now, he still represents our best chance to beat Trump.
Unfortunately, it's not just The Bulwark that's raising the hysteria. Unless you turn off all news, you can't get away from this nonsense.
As folks at the Lincoln project point out - you are giving Trump just what he wants cause Biden had a bad night. Maybe a bit less pearl clutching and a bit more focus on the evils of Trump and all his Gish Galloping b.s. ? Cause 4 months out it is pretty clear we are in for another RBG moment with Biden; he's not going anywhere. But maybe if we focus on the real problem at hand- Trumpfuckery- we will avert a disaster-
https://dnyuz.com/2024/06/29/democrats-stop-panicking/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2oYJZzbPmFESJGuiUDJQ_EhZBQoicS2A3NL0ACtnUs6UfuaS4TjxAHMbs_aem_M8xFTpaqKP6c9xKFOGT2Nw
and watch this interview with Rick Wilson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBj_CO2raWU
Never surrender!
Yes, exactly! Sigh. Dems. Head shake. Hand smack against forehead. Dems.
Not sure the statement that Biden wanted the debate is entirely accurate - "It was Howard Stern of all people who first got Biden to commit publicly to facing off with Trump again, during the president’s visit to his New York studio in late April. It kicked up the conversation internally about how to handle Trump’s repeated push to debate Biden “any time, any place.” There were even informal, back-channel conversations between the Biden and Trump campaigns that laid the groundwork for both sides agreeing to the June 27 and Sept. 10 faceoffs, according to multiple sources involved." https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/biden-trump-debates-politics-desk-rcna152451
Trump was goading him and knowing the "Biden in the basement" schtick that trump used the first time around - guessing Biden got his dander up and felt he had to answer the challenge. Not much different than the stupidity of 1800s duels to assuage honor.