Sasha Havlicek and Philip Bump join the panel to discuss online disinformation, the GOP reaction to Trump guilty verdict, and the Fauci follies in Congress.
The lesson of this pandemic is that when the next one happens the only thing to do in response is to weaponize it as much as possible, and that only fools worry about saving lives or public health. AFTER ALL The dead don’t vote, and frankly by the time the next one comes elections are unlikely to matter anyway, so the weaponization festival will be untrammeled by any shred of decency or interest in science or epidemiology.
I am a liberal centrist and love this podcast. But I beg to differ on President Trump's sentence on the false business records conviction. As a 40-year lawyer who reveres the rule of law, I do not agree that Trump should not receive a jail sentence. Only jail will send a deterrent message to Trump and his followers that falsifying records is wrong, contemptuous conduct is not trivial, and that he is not above the law.
Sixty days in jail, suspended while on appeal so he can campaign, seems reasonable to me in light of his disrespect for the rule of law, criminal law, and the judicial system.
I really disagree with Beg to Differ commentators who worry about the impact of a jail sentence on the mob. Frankly, I think the mob's sentiments are irrelevant to the rule of law, and that by bowing to them we would be enabling them. Trump needs to take personal responsibility for his criminality and the mob needs to accept the rule of law-- or be jailed for their lawless as on January 6. I don't see how we can bend to the mob without enabling them. Their delusions are not to be respected by civilized society, in my opinion.
Just heard this and thought of Linda Chavez, apropos her reaction to the NY DA verdict (turn the volume up high for best effect): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgO-iM5obSM
On a more serious note, I also read the WaPo article re Annunciation House and am appalled at the State of Texas trying to shut it down.
One thing the panel didn't bring up during the discussion of the Covid vaccine and anti-vaxing is that Trump now says in his rally speeches that he will not give "one penny" of federal money to any school that has a vaccine mandate. Not a Covid vaccine mandate (he's never used the word Covid in that context) but any vaccine. So.....welcome back polio????
Honestly, I am shocked by how naive you are all about who/how often people are jailed for falsifying official (accounting) documents. Look at Spitzer's record in NY and how many people (mostly CPAs) that he put in jail for creating false documents. I personally know of a CPA who was sentenced to 48 months when Spitzer went on a spree of trying these cases. Really, wake up people! DJT deserves no less. I am not foolish enough to believe that he will spend any time in prison (that would be unfair to the Secret Service agents that are paid to protect him) but an ankle bracelet and confinement to Bedminster is not out of the question, and would not be "unfair". He did the crime, and should pay a price - that is what our justice system is set up to ensure.
I’ve listened to many hours of live reporting and analyses, read many of the trial transcripts, including the final arguments, and don’t think I’ve ever suggested the case was trivial. I still do not believe he’ll get jail time for the felonies, though as I tried to get in but not sure I was successful as Mona wanted to move on—he may get some sort of detention for his contempt violations. I would still have preferred another of the cases to go first, but will settle on his finally having been held to account for some of his wrong-doing.
Thank you for responding. My understanding is that this type of case is common and that those convicted are sentenced to prison. We will never know if Clinton would have won the 2016 election if the public knew about Trump’s dalliance with Stormy Daniels. But the fact that Trump et al were concerned that it might led him to engage in illegal activities to improperly influence the 2016 election. This is not a mere bookkeeping error. Consider having George Conway as a guest on Beg to Differ.
I was going to write a similar comment! It was either George or Ben Wittes who said that these kinds of cases are the "bread and butter" of Alvin Bragg's office. So for people to say that anyone other than T***p wouldn't have been prosecuted, and that he was in effect picked on, is ridiculous.
Tim pointed out the very thing you said: we'll never know what would've happened in 2016 if this hadn't been covered up. It's disappointing that Bulwark folks downplay the seriousness of the case; the main point wasn't paying off Stormy, it was interfering in the election.
Mona mentioned the disproportionate COVID mortality in pro-MAGA counties, through last April. I wonder if this will impact the election. Killing off your voters isn’t an excellent plan.
How does this happen... Republicans used to believe in personal responsibility, vaccines etc... There were of course many many liberals that don't get vaccinated and prefer sun crystal healing or whatever they call it so I don't know if that's fair to say.
Good discussion today on Beg to Differ, but a couple of points if I may.
First, as to the “seriousness” of the New York trial and the value of a prison sentence (or not). If, as Trump wants, you view this trial as a minor bookkeeping offense rigged up to a felony, you’re right that Judge Merchan should give a suspended sentence at most.
However, like the January 6th case, this is an election interference case that should be taken seriously as such. Morever, the January 6th case was about a violent mob that tried, unsuccessfully, to thwart the will of the voters in 2020.
The New York trial was about an election interference conspiracy that highly likely changed the outcome of the 2016 election. That election was decided by fewer than 100,000 votes in three states. Is it possible that, had the shtupping been reported, that many votes would have changed? Definitely. Is it likely? I’d say so.
I’d call the New York trial at least as significant as the other. And added to that Trump’s refusal to take any responsibility, his total lack of remorse, his attacks on the justice system and his endangering of the Court, the jurors and the witnesses. All told, I’d say a prison sentence is called for.
Secondly, as to the House Fauci hearing. You’re right, it was a joke. But what I haven’t heard discussed, here or elsewhere, is the role of government and, more basically, the role of an economy as seen through the lens of Covid and our response to it.
Let’s agree that our response was a bit start-and-stop, a bit too much and too little. Let’s also agree that we were seeing a totally unknown virus that, in a very short time, ripped through New York killing thousands of people. I envy anyone who didn’t have to walk down Park Avenue, passing Lenox Hill Hospital and seeing the line-up of morgue refrigerator vans filled with the overflow of corpses. Or the television images of the few who were hospitalized and survived being cheered by overworked HCP’s as they left the hospital.
Surely the gravity of the situation warranted erring on the side of a conservative approach.
So, some ask, should the government have prioritized economic strength over the well-being of the population? And what is the role of an economy, anyway?
If we were invaded by enemy forces, killing thousands of Americans, would we argue that drafting millions of men and women was hurting the productivity of the economy? I’d say the conservative approach would be to fight the war and deal with the economy later. In essence, that’s what Dr. Fauci and his colleagues did.
An economy, at its heart, is the means by which the population produces the means of survival. Letting the population die is not helping the economy, despite the MAGA clowns’ protests.
Im not sure I understand your position on covid (ok I understand it and agree with the conclusion) but I don’t understand what or how your using the word conservative with respect to the war example or covid. I’m not sure there is a “conservative” approach to covid.
Conservative as in cautious, not in the political sense.
When we're hit with a horrendous and novel pandemic, it's understandable that the medical community won't know how to stop its spread, so the sensible approach is to be as cautious as possible, at least until we know what we're dealing with.
That said, it can reasonably be argued that our caution went longer than was necessary and that some decisions were a bit half-assed (i.e., Newsome's closing churches while letting bars remain open).
I think both are true. Also this has been learned for other countries who have had Ebola, sars, swine flu, etc. they all had very different transition rates and death rates.
It’s also hard to kniw if we actually did lock down right. We could have been more aggressive like Europe and have lower death rates like Europe.
What’s hard is that we did everything kind of worse than everywhere. We locked down fast (good) but really didn’t lock down well. Our lockdowns were nothing compared to Asia, Europe or Australia. But because we locked down bad we had higher death but then we kind of continued too long with lockdown. Also we kind of never really prioritized anything. It was just half ass lockdowns.
Schools have been re-opened for three years now. Lessons have been learned. I doubt schools will ever close like that again (even if they should). Has the right relented in its demonization of science and vaccines? Stop bothsiding this one.
This point always annoys me, too, presented as if teachers were just trying to dodge work, with the help of their unions. We’ve forgotten how long it took to figure out how COVID was spread and how children were impacted. Even so, people working in schools were exposed and became sick and died. My sister lost two colleagues, before the vaccines were available, but when grade schools were back in person.
I continue to be extremely disappointed and irritated that i can not listen to bulwark podcasts as easily as before videos became the norm. I have to keep my screen on in order to not have the video stop - extremely irritating. And not what i paid for. I may appreciate the content but i reject the notion that i have to engage with videos instead of podcasts.
I agree. I am extremely annoyed that they are embracing the whole YouTube thing, but glad that most are still podcasts. I just can't sit and stare at my phone for an hour.
At the left side of the video player, you can toggle between video and audio. Unfortunately, this player, even in audio mode, does not give you the option to jump back 15 seconds.
Enjoyed your guest today—adult digital literacy is a must. Those of us who worked in the office got this training. Then all of a sudden every American had access to the web with their phones but without the training. I recall the start of misinformation so well because of that period of time.
I understand Damon’s point but I find that too often we fail to see what would happen if we didn’t prosecute trump. Almost all trumps crimes were done in the full view of the American people. If people see that the president can do crime with impunity than the system begins to break apart at that point. It’s exactly what’s happened at the Supreme Court. Once people realize it’s just another political body (which it always has been but much better hidden) people stop taking what they say as law but as politics.
The U.S. government got Al Capone on tax fraud, so I think Trump was fair game especially since others went to prison for this. You may have disliked the case, Mona, but a grand jury indicted Trump over plenty of evidence gathered over at least two years. Linda Chavez showed her anti-Biden feelings with her comment complaining about Biden's grin being ...what? She and Mona knew what she meant. I can only guess. And Linda, Biden has been criss-crossing the country reminding people about all that has been accomplished in the past 3 plus years. Maybe the media could give him as much coverage as they give Trump? I am sorry to say that this episode had no counterbalance; it was all leaning right. I am sure they could have found someone who DID 'beg to differ".
The lesson of this pandemic is that when the next one happens the only thing to do in response is to weaponize it as much as possible, and that only fools worry about saving lives or public health. AFTER ALL The dead don’t vote, and frankly by the time the next one comes elections are unlikely to matter anyway, so the weaponization festival will be untrammeled by any shred of decency or interest in science or epidemiology.
I am a liberal centrist and love this podcast. But I beg to differ on President Trump's sentence on the false business records conviction. As a 40-year lawyer who reveres the rule of law, I do not agree that Trump should not receive a jail sentence. Only jail will send a deterrent message to Trump and his followers that falsifying records is wrong, contemptuous conduct is not trivial, and that he is not above the law.
Sixty days in jail, suspended while on appeal so he can campaign, seems reasonable to me in light of his disrespect for the rule of law, criminal law, and the judicial system.
I really disagree with Beg to Differ commentators who worry about the impact of a jail sentence on the mob. Frankly, I think the mob's sentiments are irrelevant to the rule of law, and that by bowing to them we would be enabling them. Trump needs to take personal responsibility for his criminality and the mob needs to accept the rule of law-- or be jailed for their lawless as on January 6. I don't see how we can bend to the mob without enabling them. Their delusions are not to be respected by civilized society, in my opinion.
Just heard this and thought of Linda Chavez, apropos her reaction to the NY DA verdict (turn the volume up high for best effect): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgO-iM5obSM
On a more serious note, I also read the WaPo article re Annunciation House and am appalled at the State of Texas trying to shut it down.
One thing the panel didn't bring up during the discussion of the Covid vaccine and anti-vaxing is that Trump now says in his rally speeches that he will not give "one penny" of federal money to any school that has a vaccine mandate. Not a Covid vaccine mandate (he's never used the word Covid in that context) but any vaccine. So.....welcome back polio????
Honestly, I am shocked by how naive you are all about who/how often people are jailed for falsifying official (accounting) documents. Look at Spitzer's record in NY and how many people (mostly CPAs) that he put in jail for creating false documents. I personally know of a CPA who was sentenced to 48 months when Spitzer went on a spree of trying these cases. Really, wake up people! DJT deserves no less. I am not foolish enough to believe that he will spend any time in prison (that would be unfair to the Secret Service agents that are paid to protect him) but an ankle bracelet and confinement to Bedminster is not out of the question, and would not be "unfair". He did the crime, and should pay a price - that is what our justice system is set up to ensure.
Serious question: Do any of you listen to Sarah’s podcast with George Conway? Perhaps if you did you would not dismiss the NY case as trivial.
I’ve listened to many hours of live reporting and analyses, read many of the trial transcripts, including the final arguments, and don’t think I’ve ever suggested the case was trivial. I still do not believe he’ll get jail time for the felonies, though as I tried to get in but not sure I was successful as Mona wanted to move on—he may get some sort of detention for his contempt violations. I would still have preferred another of the cases to go first, but will settle on his finally having been held to account for some of his wrong-doing.
Thank you for responding. My understanding is that this type of case is common and that those convicted are sentenced to prison. We will never know if Clinton would have won the 2016 election if the public knew about Trump’s dalliance with Stormy Daniels. But the fact that Trump et al were concerned that it might led him to engage in illegal activities to improperly influence the 2016 election. This is not a mere bookkeeping error. Consider having George Conway as a guest on Beg to Differ.
I was going to write a similar comment! It was either George or Ben Wittes who said that these kinds of cases are the "bread and butter" of Alvin Bragg's office. So for people to say that anyone other than T***p wouldn't have been prosecuted, and that he was in effect picked on, is ridiculous.
Tim pointed out the very thing you said: we'll never know what would've happened in 2016 if this hadn't been covered up. It's disappointing that Bulwark folks downplay the seriousness of the case; the main point wasn't paying off Stormy, it was interfering in the election.
Mona mentioned the disproportionate COVID mortality in pro-MAGA counties, through last April. I wonder if this will impact the election. Killing off your voters isn’t an excellent plan.
How does this happen... Republicans used to believe in personal responsibility, vaccines etc... There were of course many many liberals that don't get vaccinated and prefer sun crystal healing or whatever they call it so I don't know if that's fair to say.
Between my sun crystal and sound bath healing techniques, I’ve never felt better!
I beg to quibble.
Good discussion today on Beg to Differ, but a couple of points if I may.
First, as to the “seriousness” of the New York trial and the value of a prison sentence (or not). If, as Trump wants, you view this trial as a minor bookkeeping offense rigged up to a felony, you’re right that Judge Merchan should give a suspended sentence at most.
However, like the January 6th case, this is an election interference case that should be taken seriously as such. Morever, the January 6th case was about a violent mob that tried, unsuccessfully, to thwart the will of the voters in 2020.
The New York trial was about an election interference conspiracy that highly likely changed the outcome of the 2016 election. That election was decided by fewer than 100,000 votes in three states. Is it possible that, had the shtupping been reported, that many votes would have changed? Definitely. Is it likely? I’d say so.
I’d call the New York trial at least as significant as the other. And added to that Trump’s refusal to take any responsibility, his total lack of remorse, his attacks on the justice system and his endangering of the Court, the jurors and the witnesses. All told, I’d say a prison sentence is called for.
Secondly, as to the House Fauci hearing. You’re right, it was a joke. But what I haven’t heard discussed, here or elsewhere, is the role of government and, more basically, the role of an economy as seen through the lens of Covid and our response to it.
Let’s agree that our response was a bit start-and-stop, a bit too much and too little. Let’s also agree that we were seeing a totally unknown virus that, in a very short time, ripped through New York killing thousands of people. I envy anyone who didn’t have to walk down Park Avenue, passing Lenox Hill Hospital and seeing the line-up of morgue refrigerator vans filled with the overflow of corpses. Or the television images of the few who were hospitalized and survived being cheered by overworked HCP’s as they left the hospital.
Surely the gravity of the situation warranted erring on the side of a conservative approach.
So, some ask, should the government have prioritized economic strength over the well-being of the population? And what is the role of an economy, anyway?
If we were invaded by enemy forces, killing thousands of Americans, would we argue that drafting millions of men and women was hurting the productivity of the economy? I’d say the conservative approach would be to fight the war and deal with the economy later. In essence, that’s what Dr. Fauci and his colleagues did.
An economy, at its heart, is the means by which the population produces the means of survival. Letting the population die is not helping the economy, despite the MAGA clowns’ protests.
Im not sure I understand your position on covid (ok I understand it and agree with the conclusion) but I don’t understand what or how your using the word conservative with respect to the war example or covid. I’m not sure there is a “conservative” approach to covid.
Conservative as in cautious, not in the political sense.
When we're hit with a horrendous and novel pandemic, it's understandable that the medical community won't know how to stop its spread, so the sensible approach is to be as cautious as possible, at least until we know what we're dealing with.
That said, it can reasonably be argued that our caution went longer than was necessary and that some decisions were a bit half-assed (i.e., Newsome's closing churches while letting bars remain open).
Does that clear it up?
Ahhh that makes more sense now. Gotcha.
I think both are true. Also this has been learned for other countries who have had Ebola, sars, swine flu, etc. they all had very different transition rates and death rates.
It’s also hard to kniw if we actually did lock down right. We could have been more aggressive like Europe and have lower death rates like Europe.
What’s hard is that we did everything kind of worse than everywhere. We locked down fast (good) but really didn’t lock down well. Our lockdowns were nothing compared to Asia, Europe or Australia. But because we locked down bad we had higher death but then we kind of continued too long with lockdown. Also we kind of never really prioritized anything. It was just half ass lockdowns.
Schools have been re-opened for three years now. Lessons have been learned. I doubt schools will ever close like that again (even if they should). Has the right relented in its demonization of science and vaccines? Stop bothsiding this one.
This point always annoys me, too, presented as if teachers were just trying to dodge work, with the help of their unions. We’ve forgotten how long it took to figure out how COVID was spread and how children were impacted. Even so, people working in schools were exposed and became sick and died. My sister lost two colleagues, before the vaccines were available, but when grade schools were back in person.
I continue to be extremely disappointed and irritated that i can not listen to bulwark podcasts as easily as before videos became the norm. I have to keep my screen on in order to not have the video stop - extremely irritating. And not what i paid for. I may appreciate the content but i reject the notion that i have to engage with videos instead of podcasts.
I agree. I am extremely annoyed that they are embracing the whole YouTube thing, but glad that most are still podcasts. I just can't sit and stare at my phone for an hour.
Just get the RSS feed of the podcasts and listen to them in your player that way:
https://www.thebulwark.com/account/add-podcast?utm_source=all-podcasts
At the left side of the video player, you can toggle between video and audio. Unfortunately, this player, even in audio mode, does not give you the option to jump back 15 seconds.
Sasha Havlicek’s segment on digital disinformation was outstanding. I would enjoy seeing her back in the podcast.
Enjoyed your guest today—adult digital literacy is a must. Those of us who worked in the office got this training. Then all of a sudden every American had access to the web with their phones but without the training. I recall the start of misinformation so well because of that period of time.
Mona, once again acting the apologist and voice of the right.
I understand Damon’s point but I find that too often we fail to see what would happen if we didn’t prosecute trump. Almost all trumps crimes were done in the full view of the American people. If people see that the president can do crime with impunity than the system begins to break apart at that point. It’s exactly what’s happened at the Supreme Court. Once people realize it’s just another political body (which it always has been but much better hidden) people stop taking what they say as law but as politics.
Please stop with the BS about the NY case. Charges such as these are routinely brought in NY. You don't like it--change the laws prospectively.
https://meidasnews.com/news/setting-the-record-straight-on-the-ny-election-interference-case-against-donald-trump
See Michael Cohen.
The U.S. government got Al Capone on tax fraud, so I think Trump was fair game especially since others went to prison for this. You may have disliked the case, Mona, but a grand jury indicted Trump over plenty of evidence gathered over at least two years. Linda Chavez showed her anti-Biden feelings with her comment complaining about Biden's grin being ...what? She and Mona knew what she meant. I can only guess. And Linda, Biden has been criss-crossing the country reminding people about all that has been accomplished in the past 3 plus years. Maybe the media could give him as much coverage as they give Trump? I am sorry to say that this episode had no counterbalance; it was all leaning right. I am sure they could have found someone who DID 'beg to differ".