This is absolutely a legitimate question. Laws differ on how LEOs have to identify themselves, but of course, the laws rarely apply in these situations.
Best bet is probably to coordinate with lawyers beforehand and have your response ready so that if she's abducted you have a pre-existing legal plan that can be deployed.
This is absolutely a legitimate question. Laws differ on how LEOs have to identify themselves, but of course, the laws rarely apply in these situations.
Best bet is probably to coordinate with lawyers beforehand and have your response ready so that if she's abducted you have a pre-existing legal plan that can be deployed.
This conversation just broke me. It's all been looking really bad and managing it all is tough, but I usually maintain composure. But there's something about you two, here in the comments like always, discussing something so horrific. It's so normal and familiar, almost comforting, except in this one grotesque way. Having to game out the various permutations of the abduction and defense of your wife... This shouldn't be real.
I am a lawyer, in Michigan, and my best legal/practical/personal safety advice is to conceal-carry your cellphone, fully charged, and be trained on how to quickly take video.
Seriously; just think of the number of cases of recent ICE abuse that we AREN'T talking about, because there was (a) no on-scene video and (b) no lawyers at the ready to file for TRO's and habeas.
I am glad we are talking about this Tufts case, and I just want to pause the discussion to thank and praise everyone who, at perhaps some personal risk, made the effort to record the event and get the video into the hands of people to make it public.
This scary and disgusting situation couldn't get much worse, although the one way it might have been worse is if it had turned into a gunfight with a dead conceal-carry husband, and Fox News hosts screaming (illegitimately) about violence against CBP/ICE cops "while making a lawful arrest."
By the way; since I live near the U.S. - Canada border (much love to my wonderful Canadian neighbors), I obtained a "Passport card" when I last renewed my U.S. Passport. It looks like a driver's license, except it contains your passport info.
You need your real passport, if you are traveling abroad. But the card works if you are traversing the Ambassador Bridge to go get some new hockey gear or Indian food or Canadian beer in Windsor, Ontario.
I don't always carry my Passport card, but I very often do. More so lately. I am right now. I personally think it would be a chore and an annoyance to always carry my actual Passport, but I completely understand why some people would.
I'm not sure this solves the hypothetical problem of someone copycatting this approach and using it for "more criminal" means like human abduction. How do you tell legitimate LEOs from criminals?
You find out after the fact that they've been kidnapped by someone who isn't law enforcement? That's... not good.
I know this is the best choice, and it is the one I am pre-committing to (I have my immigration lawyer's number ready to go). The fucked up part for me is that I'm a combat veteran with C-PTSD and every ounce of my prefrontal cortex and right amygdala are going to be pushing me into "protect mode" if something like this were ever to occur. We all know what we'd like to do in theory when we're not in the heat of a moment with milliseconds to make a decision, but we don't ever know how we're actually going to react until we're in the moment itself. That's the kind of shit I worry about in my personal case.
I wonder about this from the perspective of the woman being kidnapped. Even the first person approaching me like that would put me on full alert. Then the second and third person surrounding me, wearing masks, I would be freaking the fuck out. I couldn’t stop myself from physically fighting (C-PTSD here as well). It would be an instant reaction. And screaming.
I am surprised by the calmness of the two detainees we’ve seen being arrested like this. These guys could’ve bought those badges on Amazon.
What do people think about fighting on purpose, if you’re the one being arrested when you’re alone?
Some time ago I read about a someone conducting a group discussion on personal safety where the participants were asked what they did routinely to protect themselves whenever they went out. The men all looked baffled and every woman there had at least two precautions.
I can't imagine how any woman being grabbed on the street by a strange man, let alone several strange men, wouldn't think she was at risk of being raped, but the shock of what is happening can have different effects. Some will probably freeze, especially now when it's early days yet and people think they still have legal recourse. Speaking as a rape victim (it was many years ago) I made a conscious decision at the time not to fight because I thought he would kill me if I resisted, but figured (correctly, as it turns out) that I could get away once it was over if I moved fast enough. I believe many more women than we like to imagine make such calculations but as a culture we prefer dead rape victms to live ones who are somehow complicit in the assaults if they don't end up on an autopsy table
All of which is to say that fighting for your life may well get you shot by one of these knuckleheads - I'm assuming they're armed - but on the other hand who knows where they're taking you? In any event it's something to think about ahead of time and mentally prepare for.
It's illegal to impersonate law enforcement/government officials/ICE agents/etc., yet men* get ahold of a janky badge, uniform, lights and pull women over all the time. I'll let y'all fill in the rest. I routinely drive 150 miles+ for a doc appointment or for work and this is why I conceal carry.
Travis, I'd do the following in this order: call the police, then my lawyer (or have lawyer call 911), set my phone to record,,demand identification (ask your lawyer for the legal cite re: LEO/ICE duty to ID), and depending on what they say, let them know you're armed (in TX we have to disclose that immediately). Now here's the really hard part, speak in a calm, non-threatening manner.
I have C-PTSD, too, for different reasons so I get how your brain is in go mode. All I can say is that it would be *really* hard for me not to use the Remington .22 that's on my person whenever I leave my house. **OTOH, I'm also a lawyer so I know that pulling a gun on ICE agents is asking to be violently arrested, at a minimum, up to a shootout.**
JVL, would y'all still have my back if I were arrested under these circumstances?
*I've *never* heard of a woman pulling this stunt in my 15 years of criminal defense practice.
The unfortunate reality is that you would likely be shot and probably killed in a fullisade of gunfire (multiple rounds from the agents present, plus the misses that are going off to who knows where), because (from what I have seen) LEO fire discipline sucks.
One of the reasons that I do not carry a gun is because of this. I do not live in a high threat area, so I am not really concerned with personal defense. I AM concerned about using a weapon and having to deal with the consequences, because I AM the type of person that if I have the weapon, its coming out in a case like this.
And I am a REALLY good shot, I practice. Probably more than most LEOs do.
“Pre-lawyering”. Yesterday I wrote that just thinking about DOGE sniffing the voter rolls made me feel “pre-violated”. I have run similar tapes in my mind as Travis describes. Maybe we all need to pre-install a red alert app on our phones and have a finger poised over the panic button on the screen whenever we go out; the app would be pre-loaded with our pre-lawyer.
That’s a version of what I’ve been doing daily with my daughter for years. Since I live alone, I text her every morning. If she doesn’t hear from me she checks in. We even share a safe word, for “help!”.
I remember after 9/11 there was a brief interest in human microchips as we use for pets, to enable identification of the deceased, and location of survivors. My mind is going there again. Ah, but that would just cause them to ‘wand’ us and start cutting. I hate having these thoughts!
Around 2003 I had a friend who self implanted a dog microchip in his hand and used it to wave in front of the lock on his front door to get in! He loved it
That’s hilarious! I remember a news story from probably 15 years ago of a tech freak who had a fairly large device installed in the back of his neck; it looked quite sore, and he abandoned his experiment fairly soon.
I would point out that there's a 50% chance you typed this comment on a device which allows the government to track you. Cell phone location data is used regularly to establish where a suspect was at a given time.
Good point. But when they grab people off the street, I’m guessing they confiscate their phones (location devices) so your loved ones have no information. In my fantasy, the hidden chip still works - but that assumes a battery and range, which probably isn’t feasible . . . for now. Which means microchips can’t really be functional trackers even for the government. Back when the anti-vaxers thought there was a microchip small enough to go through a small gauge needle and STILL have that level of capability, I thought “if only!” There really is no recourse for those being nabbed.
And that’s why the idea died. But the government can only track you that way if they know you have a chip. But like I wrote; wanding as they do to dogs. The idea needs a lot of work! I’m not even a sci-fi fan, so someone else needs to work on it.
"Best bet is probably to coordinate with lawyers beforehand and have your response ready so that if she's abducted you have a pre-existing legal plan that can be deployed."
This is absolutely a legitimate question. Laws differ on how LEOs have to identify themselves, but of course, the laws rarely apply in these situations.
Best bet is probably to coordinate with lawyers beforehand and have your response ready so that if she's abducted you have a pre-existing legal plan that can be deployed.
This conversation just broke me. It's all been looking really bad and managing it all is tough, but I usually maintain composure. But there's something about you two, here in the comments like always, discussing something so horrific. It's so normal and familiar, almost comforting, except in this one grotesque way. Having to game out the various permutations of the abduction and defense of your wife... This shouldn't be real.
I am a lawyer, in Michigan, and my best legal/practical/personal safety advice is to conceal-carry your cellphone, fully charged, and be trained on how to quickly take video.
Seriously; just think of the number of cases of recent ICE abuse that we AREN'T talking about, because there was (a) no on-scene video and (b) no lawyers at the ready to file for TRO's and habeas.
I am glad we are talking about this Tufts case, and I just want to pause the discussion to thank and praise everyone who, at perhaps some personal risk, made the effort to record the event and get the video into the hands of people to make it public.
This scary and disgusting situation couldn't get much worse, although the one way it might have been worse is if it had turned into a gunfight with a dead conceal-carry husband, and Fox News hosts screaming (illegitimately) about violence against CBP/ICE cops "while making a lawful arrest."
By the way; since I live near the U.S. - Canada border (much love to my wonderful Canadian neighbors), I obtained a "Passport card" when I last renewed my U.S. Passport. It looks like a driver's license, except it contains your passport info.
You need your real passport, if you are traveling abroad. But the card works if you are traversing the Ambassador Bridge to go get some new hockey gear or Indian food or Canadian beer in Windsor, Ontario.
I don't always carry my Passport card, but I very often do. More so lately. I am right now. I personally think it would be a chore and an annoyance to always carry my actual Passport, but I completely understand why some people would.
U.S. Passport card:
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/need-passport/card.html
I'm not sure this solves the hypothetical problem of someone copycatting this approach and using it for "more criminal" means like human abduction. How do you tell legitimate LEOs from criminals?
You find out after the fact that they've been kidnapped by someone who isn't law enforcement? That's... not good.
Oh, that makes sense.
I know this is the best choice, and it is the one I am pre-committing to (I have my immigration lawyer's number ready to go). The fucked up part for me is that I'm a combat veteran with C-PTSD and every ounce of my prefrontal cortex and right amygdala are going to be pushing me into "protect mode" if something like this were ever to occur. We all know what we'd like to do in theory when we're not in the heat of a moment with milliseconds to make a decision, but we don't ever know how we're actually going to react until we're in the moment itself. That's the kind of shit I worry about in my personal case.
I wonder about this from the perspective of the woman being kidnapped. Even the first person approaching me like that would put me on full alert. Then the second and third person surrounding me, wearing masks, I would be freaking the fuck out. I couldn’t stop myself from physically fighting (C-PTSD here as well). It would be an instant reaction. And screaming.
I am surprised by the calmness of the two detainees we’ve seen being arrested like this. These guys could’ve bought those badges on Amazon.
What do people think about fighting on purpose, if you’re the one being arrested when you’re alone?
Some time ago I read about a someone conducting a group discussion on personal safety where the participants were asked what they did routinely to protect themselves whenever they went out. The men all looked baffled and every woman there had at least two precautions.
I can't imagine how any woman being grabbed on the street by a strange man, let alone several strange men, wouldn't think she was at risk of being raped, but the shock of what is happening can have different effects. Some will probably freeze, especially now when it's early days yet and people think they still have legal recourse. Speaking as a rape victim (it was many years ago) I made a conscious decision at the time not to fight because I thought he would kill me if I resisted, but figured (correctly, as it turns out) that I could get away once it was over if I moved fast enough. I believe many more women than we like to imagine make such calculations but as a culture we prefer dead rape victms to live ones who are somehow complicit in the assaults if they don't end up on an autopsy table
All of which is to say that fighting for your life may well get you shot by one of these knuckleheads - I'm assuming they're armed - but on the other hand who knows where they're taking you? In any event it's something to think about ahead of time and mentally prepare for.
Travis I hate that you and your family face this prospect. It’s illegal and unconstitutional.
It's illegal to impersonate law enforcement/government officials/ICE agents/etc., yet men* get ahold of a janky badge, uniform, lights and pull women over all the time. I'll let y'all fill in the rest. I routinely drive 150 miles+ for a doc appointment or for work and this is why I conceal carry.
Travis, I'd do the following in this order: call the police, then my lawyer (or have lawyer call 911), set my phone to record,,demand identification (ask your lawyer for the legal cite re: LEO/ICE duty to ID), and depending on what they say, let them know you're armed (in TX we have to disclose that immediately). Now here's the really hard part, speak in a calm, non-threatening manner.
I have C-PTSD, too, for different reasons so I get how your brain is in go mode. All I can say is that it would be *really* hard for me not to use the Remington .22 that's on my person whenever I leave my house. **OTOH, I'm also a lawyer so I know that pulling a gun on ICE agents is asking to be violently arrested, at a minimum, up to a shootout.**
JVL, would y'all still have my back if I were arrested under these circumstances?
*I've *never* heard of a woman pulling this stunt in my 15 years of criminal defense practice.
The unfortunate reality is that you would likely be shot and probably killed in a fullisade of gunfire (multiple rounds from the agents present, plus the misses that are going off to who knows where), because (from what I have seen) LEO fire discipline sucks.
One of the reasons that I do not carry a gun is because of this. I do not live in a high threat area, so I am not really concerned with personal defense. I AM concerned about using a weapon and having to deal with the consequences, because I AM the type of person that if I have the weapon, its coming out in a case like this.
And I am a REALLY good shot, I practice. Probably more than most LEOs do.
We are going to see some version of that story in this administration. I pray it is not yours. 🙏 (sincere emoji)
Can't say "LIKE", only "understood."
My question is since the detention facility in Louisiana is privately owned, isn’t there a chance that these masked people aren’t ICE at all?
Which company owns it?
The GEO Group from what I understand.
Thank you.
“Pre-lawyering”. Yesterday I wrote that just thinking about DOGE sniffing the voter rolls made me feel “pre-violated”. I have run similar tapes in my mind as Travis describes. Maybe we all need to pre-install a red alert app on our phones and have a finger poised over the panic button on the screen whenever we go out; the app would be pre-loaded with our pre-lawyer.
That’s a version of what I’ve been doing daily with my daughter for years. Since I live alone, I text her every morning. If she doesn’t hear from me she checks in. We even share a safe word, for “help!”.
I remember after 9/11 there was a brief interest in human microchips as we use for pets, to enable identification of the deceased, and location of survivors. My mind is going there again. Ah, but that would just cause them to ‘wand’ us and start cutting. I hate having these thoughts!
Around 2003 I had a friend who self implanted a dog microchip in his hand and used it to wave in front of the lock on his front door to get in! He loved it
That’s commitment to key-free living.
That’s hilarious! I remember a news story from probably 15 years ago of a tech freak who had a fairly large device installed in the back of his neck; it looked quite sore, and he abandoned his experiment fairly soon.
Microchips would allow the government to track us. NO WAY
I would point out that there's a 50% chance you typed this comment on a device which allows the government to track you. Cell phone location data is used regularly to establish where a suspect was at a given time.
Good point. But when they grab people off the street, I’m guessing they confiscate their phones (location devices) so your loved ones have no information. In my fantasy, the hidden chip still works - but that assumes a battery and range, which probably isn’t feasible . . . for now. Which means microchips can’t really be functional trackers even for the government. Back when the anti-vaxers thought there was a microchip small enough to go through a small gauge needle and STILL have that level of capability, I thought “if only!” There really is no recourse for those being nabbed.
And that’s why the idea died. But the government can only track you that way if they know you have a chip. But like I wrote; wanding as they do to dogs. The idea needs a lot of work! I’m not even a sci-fi fan, so someone else needs to work on it.
Also record everything.
THIS, ALL CAPS AND BOLD:
"Best bet is probably to coordinate with lawyers beforehand and have your response ready so that if she's abducted you have a pre-existing legal plan that can be deployed."