LET'S LEAVE IT ALL ON THE FIELD this weekend! Phonebank! If you're in a swing state, door knock! Engage all our networks to vote!!! Let's win this thing!!!
Here's the link to register for Zoom phonebanking for the Harris campaign, they train you first. Please, no sitting on the sidelines!
I'm sorry, Bill - I have NEVER thought trump cannot sink any lower. If you turned him into a pancake, ran him over with a garbage truck and then put him through the finest setting on your pasta maker - he'd still find a few more levels to drop.
I agree Lady Emsworth. I expect him to sink lower. In fact, Prof. Ruth Ben-Ghiat says, as a strongman type he has to keep escalating. To Kamala that is doing more and more, to Trump that is going lower and lower, and even when the limbo is touching the floor, Trump is going lower. He is the only one who can go lower then her. https://youtu.be/vyHSJj_DluI?si=QeUl9VKB1cyNtH6a
Andrew: people talk about the “coming” crisis when Boomers will get old, but that crisis already exists. I am 76 and living on a fixed income. It doesn’t matter to me whether wages are going up. I’m still stuck with the same income I had before the pandemic, and so are millions of other seniors. I have had to create rules about what I can buy, so that I’m not draining my emergency fund. I don’t have kids, so there’s nobody to help me, but there are plenty of families helping their senior relatives, and they’re feeling the same thing: granny used to be able to buy her own groceries and pay her rent, but rent has tripled and grocery prices aren’t going down, so now we have to take on a bigger burden. Why isn’t anyone considering the possibility that when lots of people say “the economy,” this is what they are talking about?
Believe me, Lisa, trump will not make your life any easier. Great swathes of social funding with Musk's "belt tightening" plans- though you can bet it won't be HIS belt that tightens. Your only hope is that Harris follows through on her promises to help the vulnerable in the community. The only ones trump will help are his billionaire friends.
Thank you for this JD Vance quote. I would not want to have to listen to it myself. "If you are a middle-class or upper-middle-class white parent, and the only thing that you care about is whether your kid goes into Harvard or Yale". This is triggering for me in so many ways. First, what a d1psh1t. There is no parent that only cares that their child gets into Harvard or Yale. Ted Cruz went to Harvard and JD went to Yale and the last thing I would want is for any of my children to end up morons like those two. Second, getting into Harvard or Yale requires elite academic talent but also other less desirable traits. It means your application was selected over thousands of other "perfect" candidates. It means in twelve years of schooling JD and Ted never disagreed with a teacher, or tried to do something they were not good at, or stepped up to make an moral stand that might jeopardize their academic record. And their subsequent careers followed suit. JD pleased his master Peter Thiel and now Donald Trump. Ted called Trump a pathological liar when he thought it might make him president and then fell into line with MAGA when that benefited his career. Third, do we want to live in this kind of world where there are a few elite slots? This is what leads to "Jews will not replace us" and "Kamala is a DEI hire". Why not live in a world where everyone has an opportunity to get the education that best suites them? And everyone contributes to our collective well being, Kamala as President and Doug as first gentleman. Other peoples success is not stopping you from succeeding. I love that Kamala and Tim did not go to Ivy League schools and yet outshine in every way possible the weirdos Donald and CatLady who did.
Flood the zone with images and remind people what happens when they try to cheat and steal an election. Show all the people that have been charged, gone to jail and the lawyers that all got disbarred, plus the ones still awaiting trial. Fair warning if they try this again!
When I hear someone say that "taxes are killing me" my first thought is no, you're spending is killing you. I've known people that have a windfall and then go on a buying spree and later complain taxes are killing them because they didn't take that into account. I'll bet dollars against cornflakes that the guy in N.C. is up to his eyes in debt, maybe good debt. Like a house, a new care, or private school or college tuition for his kids. Of course he might have gotten the house at the extreme end of affordability, bought a tricked out truck and decided that state run (less expensive) universities were not good enough. But it's TAXES not maybe p*ssing away money.
While not directly related, I am wondering why the Japanese American Internment camps are not being compared to Trump's threat of interning migrants and the use of military force to get the "internal enemies".
After all, the Japanese American internment camps were run by a division of army....
I believe Doug Adams covered this but I'm not sure in which of his philosophical tomes. I think it was the same one that had "so long, and thanks for all the fish" ...
PS Oh, duhh, that was the title of the book. Thanks @knowltok for the push in the right direction.
“So long, and thanks for all the fish” is a humorous idiom used to say goodbye, acknowledging the positive experiences received during the time spent. This comes from The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, a fantasy where dolphins used the phrase as they left Earth just before it was destroyed."
Beds for depressives who feel they can do nothing. Then there's repressive anger that leads to anxiety. Then there's the paranoids that think somebody wants to steal their religion. Then there's the delusional folks that think/hope someone wants to mess with their junk. What about those who have delusions of grandeur and think they can change and run everything?
I have only seen the short clip of the Liz Cheney remark. Does Tucker show any alarm or surprise? Does he just nod in agreement? This is really alarming stuff.
I doubt Tucker would show any alarm after his own comment a week and a half ago about “you’ve been bad little girls and daddy’s coming home to give you a spanking.”
Well...on my latest FoxNews morning report....there's no mention of the Liz Cheney remark yet on the site. They are continuing to produce articles regarding Cuban and Biden's remarks though.
I'm waiting for an article headline like "MSM and Dems Faint over Remark by Trump Regarding Hunting with the Cheney's"
The late Julius Streicher - who knew something about disinformation - once said, "something always sticks." That, and not simply reality, is what the Harris campaign must contend with. But I'm cynical enough to hope that Streicher's dictum was a double edged sword. After all, the guy ended up on the end of a rope.
No, they are not. They are every single bit as human and valuable as you or me.
Kamala Harris herself has emphasized that, and when we say otherwise we undermine her campaign.
These used to be things that every civilized adult understood:
(1) The sinner is not the sin.
(2) The rank and file is not the leadership.
(3) Very few if any mistakes close the door to redemption.
These people are not going away. One way or another we are going to have to live with each other. Calling them garbage is dehumanizing; choosing to dehumanize is a very MAGA thing to do.
Empathy and respect are not optional; they are essential strategic and tactical skills. Without them, you do not know what you are fighting and you are essentially flailing around pointlessly in the dark --- a good way to lose.
Biden himself has said he did not mean to call people garbage, so when you say "Biden was right" you undermine his own message. Doubt he would appreciate that.
This vitriol accomplishes nothing. Zero. Nothing. And it risks doing a great deal of harm --- turning off undecided voters, hardening MAGA opposition, undermining Kamala Harris's vision, and sabotaging the chances for national healing.
"Orange Man Bad" is no excuse: the worse Trump/MAGA gets, the *more* important it is for us to keep our act together. And the uglier the outside world is, the more important it is for us to keep our inner worlds together.
If this is the first time you've met people who apall you, then welcome to a very large club. You'll survive it. If you're at a loss in how to fight this thing, then here's a clue: calling its rank and file "garbage" won't help.
I guess for me it helps that I have beloved family members who are MAGA. I am dismayed and worried about their beliefs and support for Trump, but I am incapable to seeing them as garbage. I can generalize from them to the rest of Trump's supporters, though there are probably some on the very fringe (the ones who talk about shooting Democrats) who would no doubt be harder to like!
"Empathy" involves trying to figure out what the other guy is going through.
"Respect" is more about how you choose to behave than what your feelz are.
Neither requires you to like the other person.
Neither requires you to deny your emotions, but they do require you to manage them responsibly.
I doubt you will find any successful political operative (or manager, or rattlesnake wrangler, or writer, or lawyer, or hostage negotiator, or five-star general) who will tell you they can do their job effectively without these two skills. (And yes, they are skills, and they require work.)
We find it hard as children when we discover that life really isn't "fair"--that bad things do happen to good people, that sometimes we're blamed for something we didn't do. The measure of how we overcome it is how we turn that to the good. And it's not like we don't know what "good" is because we can see it in the consequences of our actions and reactions. I think we are so afraid of looking wimpy instead of saying "hey, that took courage and because I didn't react quickly, I was able to rise above it and accomplish...." It's not like we don't have examples. Virtually every single crime/legal show I watch--and I watch a lot--begins with someone lying about what they did and then trying to cover it up. Or not being honest about someone else's very dangerous actions. And things go from bad to worse. The ultimate maturity is to do good because it's simply good. But on the way, we do good because we know (or have a pretty good idea of) what the consequences will be if we don't.
Very good points Amanda. We who live in Trump country (can I refer to it like that) walk a very fine line. We need to get along with each other while quietly working on what Stephen Covey called “our circle of influence, circle of control.” He also talked about the space between stimulus and response—that we can stop ourselves from replying nastily to something nasty. It doesn’t help and only confirms the other person’s suspicions that we are hateful people.
I can still remember when I first heard that song -- standing in the gift shop of The El Rancho Hotel in Gallup, NM ("Charm of Yesterday, Convenience of Tomorrow") in 2005. It was a jolt of optimism then and it is now. I guess we always need this reminder, one way or another!
No, we shouldn't be calling them "garbage." Of course not.
But do NOT tell me I have to have "empathy and respect" for MAGA folks. They lost the right to that long ago. Does that mean I will go out and scream insults at them, call them "garbage," "stupid" or whatever? No. That's about as much respect as I can offer them: in other words, I will treat them w/respect but I will NEVER respect them. They are about to turn our government and our country upside down if they get their way and Trump wins a second term. They laugh at sexist and racist jokes. They are unflappable conspiracy theorists. And their refusal to see Trump for who he is (and make excuses for him/his behavior) will have *seriously* detrimental effects on ALL of us, non-MAGA and MAGA alike (they just don't realize it for whatever reason). Both domestically and abroad (i.e., our national security - no small thing!).
Now, should I have empathy for them? Let's look at the definition of "empathy," shall we:
empathy /ĕm′pə-thē/ noun
: vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another
I've tried to empathize, but, no, I cannot "vicariously experience" the feelings and thoughts of MAGA. How is that even possible? Empathize with the things I listed above (lies, conspiracies, racism/sexism, etc? That's a big NO.
"Hardening MAGA opposition." Are you kidding me? That ship has sailed.
I'm glad you agree with my main point, which was that we should not use dehumanizing language.
I disagree that this was a lecture. I spoke strongly because I believe that this is a dangerous, destructive, and unnecessary trend.
I believe that the people who use this language have (1) many good ideas and (2) other ways to channel their frustrations. If I am right in this belief, then "cut it out with the garbage talk already" is not a big ask.
"These used to be things that every civilized adult understood:"
[Oh, so if we don't follow your list of standards we are "civilized adults? Don't tell me how I have to act to be "civilized." It's condescending as hell.]
"(1) The sinner is not the sin.
(2) The rank and file is not the leadership.
(3) Very few if any mistakes close the door to redemption."
[With the exception of #2, it sounds like you're trying to give us a religious lecture. Sin? Redemption? NOT MY STANDARDS.]
...
"Empathy and respect are not optional; they are essential strategic and tactical skills. Without them, YOU do not know what YOU are fighting and you are essentially flailing around pointlessly in the dark --- a good way to lose."
[Emphases in caps and added statements in brackets are mine]
"Empathy and respect are NOT OPTIONAL"? Sounds like a lecture to me. You are telling us how to feel and act. Nope.
You’re absolutely correct, but I think we should cut people a little slack for feeling so ungenerous towards our opponents this year. This is the most acrimonious campaign of our lives and it’s clear that one side is responsible.
Politically, this is the scariest situation we’ve ever faced in our lives. While Harris is conducting a normal campaign, Trump’s campaign is a cacophony of anger, hatred and threats. He has already incited his followers to violence once and is clearly ginning his people up for round two. Almost weekly, videos surface of his running mate insulting yet another group of people for their lifestyle or beliefs. It’s not hard to see why people on our side sometimes react to this in an intemperate manner. It’s hard to have empathy when mud is being thrown in your face.
Nobody is finding this easy. And "cutting people a little slack" does not mean condoning or encouraging harmful behavior.
You cut a drug addict slack. You cut a third-grader having a tantrum slack. That doesn't mean you condone or encourage their behavior. Understanding or not, and condoning or pushing back on, are two completely separate issues.
We also have to be the adults in the room and hope that, if we don’t have the authority to be the adults in the room, someone else is taking their position and authority seriously. Trump should never have been allowed to run for president given that so many of the people he incited on January 6th have been convicted.He should never have been granted immunity. There has indeed been a different yardstick for his behavior and we are all paying for it. Hopefully, next week the majority of the American people will speak and it will be a wake-up call for Congress and the judiciary that we want them to do their job of upholding the Constitution and not playing petty politics. Both sides.
A crack addict isn't supporting a candidate that has promised to take vengeance against his enemies, ignore the Constitution, dismantle our government to suit his needs, continue to line his own pockets, insults women and POC, wants to round up immigrants and put them in camps and on and on and on. Neither does a third-grader.
This comparison is pretty flawed. You are really missing the forest through the trees, Amanda. Going from "we shouldn't call them garbage" (we shouldn't) to telling us we should empathize with them. It's quite the stretch.
I gave you a "like" but it's the same thing as not blaming the German people for Hitler. You don't just give them a blank "bye" when they were living next to Jewish families who were torn from their homes.
They didn't stand up at the beginning, middle or end....they just sat there.
I get your point, but I think you should also get mine....these people are being willfully ignorant and it's at the expense of this country. They might be "good" people but they are NOT being good citizens.
Using Jeff's example, I will happily call German citizens who stood by, and in some cases turned in Jewish people in the lead up to the Holocaust, "garbage."
They were complicit! As are SO *many* MAGA supporters. We are possibly at the precipice of a dangerous time for our country.
Example: Is it okay to call the worst of the rioters on 1/6 who assaulted police officers "garbage"? Or should I empathize and respect them? Nah. I'm going with "garbage." I'm not on some sort of redemption mission.
I've seen you post this before, and I agree with the overall sentiment, not all people who vote for Trump are bad people. Nor do I believe that there is a correlation with intelligence.
What I do believe is that most Trump supporters are weak. They have something in them that has made them vulnerable to his con and in some cases the Republican con.
I go back and forth on this, but sometimes I resent that weakness because those of us who aren't weak enough to fall for the con are the ones left to deal with the results of their weakness. They get to indulge in their fantasies while we are stuck in reality dealing with the fallout from their fantasies.
I see your point, Ray, but what you are describing sounds like a large chunk of my adult life. It *isn't* fair. We *don't* get treated equally, we don't all have the same task, we're not going to get credit for everything we do, and @$$holes are going to get away with xit.
When it's something that affects us personally, e.g. in the workplace or seminar room, we learn to be strategic with our complaints or suffer the consequences. (1) this has consequences too, and even if it didn't, (2) nothing is an excuse for calling human beings garbage.
There is also no need for us to decide whether they are weak or not. Making these judgments is work that we are not obligated to do and cannot do competently. It simply doesn't matter, and voicing our speculations about it helps nothing.
I'm really sorry for piling on Amanda's posts. I actually *can* understand her thinking. But I classify it as "naïve," not "evolved."
Let me explain: When I think about things and form my opinions and actions, I think of real-world consequences, not what I wish the world/people would or could be. It's not all "Peace, love, and Bobby Sherman" out there. Pretending anyone can be "redeemed" just doesn't match what's happens IRL. My "empathizing" with MAGA folks isn't going to change a darn thing. And those folks are going to cause some REAL damage if they're successful in bringing a fascist, malignant narcissist who is hell bent on destroying our government.
As someone named "Sean" said below: "Some people deserve scorn."
For some people it’s not a con. He said he would cut taxes for the rich and he did. He said he would weaken environmental protections and he did. He did his best to destroy Obamacare. Yes, a lot of his followers are weak and fell for the message that he cares about working people, but some are selfish rich people who want to pay less taxes. Some want him to deport 15 million people. Some vote for anybody who claims to be against abortion. And some just know deep in their hearts that Trump hates the same people they do.
Re Vance: Despite the bland smile (John Roberts has one too), Vance is okay with racism, though his person of color wife may not, and silently supports The Great Replacement Theory that includes his wife’s mixed-race children. Despicable irony.
Racism is not just a white vs. everyone else kind of thing. My neighbor is Indian, and my understanding from her is that there's plenty of racism and bias in India based on skin tone.
LET'S LEAVE IT ALL ON THE FIELD this weekend! Phonebank! If you're in a swing state, door knock! Engage all our networks to vote!!! Let's win this thing!!!
Here's the link to register for Zoom phonebanking for the Harris campaign, they train you first. Please, no sitting on the sidelines!
https://events.democrats.org/event/664004/?utm_source=hfp_w_go_20240823&utm_campaign=hfp_w_go_mb_do_vol_vrec_20240823&utm_medium=go_kh_20240823&fbclid=IwY2xjawE1sJVleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHXZx7VK2hgNMDfFBkQN_90m3X-ccbyy6MN27CPwkHkoGpEBvNVxKg5JN0w_aem_z3lh808zCvWjB8H_ZNvV6A
I'm sorry, Bill - I have NEVER thought trump cannot sink any lower. If you turned him into a pancake, ran him over with a garbage truck and then put him through the finest setting on your pasta maker - he'd still find a few more levels to drop.
I agree Lady Emsworth. I expect him to sink lower. In fact, Prof. Ruth Ben-Ghiat says, as a strongman type he has to keep escalating. To Kamala that is doing more and more, to Trump that is going lower and lower, and even when the limbo is touching the floor, Trump is going lower. He is the only one who can go lower then her. https://youtu.be/vyHSJj_DluI?si=QeUl9VKB1cyNtH6a
Andrew: people talk about the “coming” crisis when Boomers will get old, but that crisis already exists. I am 76 and living on a fixed income. It doesn’t matter to me whether wages are going up. I’m still stuck with the same income I had before the pandemic, and so are millions of other seniors. I have had to create rules about what I can buy, so that I’m not draining my emergency fund. I don’t have kids, so there’s nobody to help me, but there are plenty of families helping their senior relatives, and they’re feeling the same thing: granny used to be able to buy her own groceries and pay her rent, but rent has tripled and grocery prices aren’t going down, so now we have to take on a bigger burden. Why isn’t anyone considering the possibility that when lots of people say “the economy,” this is what they are talking about?
Believe me, Lisa, trump will not make your life any easier. Great swathes of social funding with Musk's "belt tightening" plans- though you can bet it won't be HIS belt that tightens. Your only hope is that Harris follows through on her promises to help the vulnerable in the community. The only ones trump will help are his billionaire friends.
Thank you for this JD Vance quote. I would not want to have to listen to it myself. "If you are a middle-class or upper-middle-class white parent, and the only thing that you care about is whether your kid goes into Harvard or Yale". This is triggering for me in so many ways. First, what a d1psh1t. There is no parent that only cares that their child gets into Harvard or Yale. Ted Cruz went to Harvard and JD went to Yale and the last thing I would want is for any of my children to end up morons like those two. Second, getting into Harvard or Yale requires elite academic talent but also other less desirable traits. It means your application was selected over thousands of other "perfect" candidates. It means in twelve years of schooling JD and Ted never disagreed with a teacher, or tried to do something they were not good at, or stepped up to make an moral stand that might jeopardize their academic record. And their subsequent careers followed suit. JD pleased his master Peter Thiel and now Donald Trump. Ted called Trump a pathological liar when he thought it might make him president and then fell into line with MAGA when that benefited his career. Third, do we want to live in this kind of world where there are a few elite slots? This is what leads to "Jews will not replace us" and "Kamala is a DEI hire". Why not live in a world where everyone has an opportunity to get the education that best suites them? And everyone contributes to our collective well being, Kamala as President and Doug as first gentleman. Other peoples success is not stopping you from succeeding. I love that Kamala and Tim did not go to Ivy League schools and yet outshine in every way possible the weirdos Donald and CatLady who did.
Flood the zone with images and remind people what happens when they try to cheat and steal an election. Show all the people that have been charged, gone to jail and the lawyers that all got disbarred, plus the ones still awaiting trial. Fair warning if they try this again!
When I hear someone say that "taxes are killing me" my first thought is no, you're spending is killing you. I've known people that have a windfall and then go on a buying spree and later complain taxes are killing them because they didn't take that into account. I'll bet dollars against cornflakes that the guy in N.C. is up to his eyes in debt, maybe good debt. Like a house, a new care, or private school or college tuition for his kids. Of course he might have gotten the house at the extreme end of affordability, bought a tricked out truck and decided that state run (less expensive) universities were not good enough. But it's TAXES not maybe p*ssing away money.
Also, it highlights yet another American who wants all that our so-called 'civilized' country has to offer -- but doesn't want to pay for it.
In addition to the insight of this post, I like "dollars against cornflakes." "Dollars to donuts" just doesn't work anymore :(
Tim Miller doing Bill Maher tonight! I love both and was wondering who Bill would have on the last show before the election.
So glad Tim is on the show!
While not directly related, I am wondering why the Japanese American Internment camps are not being compared to Trump's threat of interning migrants and the use of military force to get the "internal enemies".
After all, the Japanese American internment camps were run by a division of army....
Anyone know why all the German Americans weren't interred?
Like, Fred Trump, for instance?
If you don't talk about it, it never happened. --Trumpism 101.
And the MSM is complicit.
Scary, isn't it.
The Harris/Walz campaign could bring this up, perhaps!
Philosophical question:
Can America build a psych unit large enough to house all its inhabitants?
I believe Doug Adams covered this but I'm not sure in which of his philosophical tomes. I think it was the same one that had "so long, and thanks for all the fish" ...
PS Oh, duhh, that was the title of the book. Thanks @knowltok for the push in the right direction.
“So long, and thanks for all the fish” is a humorous idiom used to say goodbye, acknowledging the positive experiences received during the time spent. This comes from The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, a fantasy where dolphins used the phrase as they left Earth just before it was destroyed."
- Somewhere on the Internet
In the late 1890s there was roughly one Asylum bed for every 750 Americans. We've fallen off terribly since then.
Beds for depressives who feel they can do nothing. Then there's repressive anger that leads to anxiety. Then there's the paranoids that think somebody wants to steal their religion. Then there's the delusional folks that think/hope someone wants to mess with their junk. What about those who have delusions of grandeur and think they can change and run everything?
Then there's DJT.
One candidate at least tried to build one of the walls.
Alternatively, check in with Wonko the Sane.
Yes! Thank you! I was trying to remember that!
I have only seen the short clip of the Liz Cheney remark. Does Tucker show any alarm or surprise? Does he just nod in agreement? This is really alarming stuff.
I doubt Tucker would show any alarm after his own comment a week and a half ago about “you’ve been bad little girls and daddy’s coming home to give you a spanking.”
Or his truly weird interview with some Christian nationalist where he talked about having encountered a demon in his bedroom (and it wasn't Trump)
He has said a lot of weird things. But that was possibly the weirdest, and also maybe gave us TMI into his psyche. which explains his maniacal laugh.
Tucker, trump & Elon running the country is the worst nightmare I can imagine.
Well...on my latest FoxNews morning report....there's no mention of the Liz Cheney remark yet on the site. They are continuing to produce articles regarding Cuban and Biden's remarks though.
I'm waiting for an article headline like "MSM and Dems Faint over Remark by Trump Regarding Hunting with the Cheney's"
I've been monitoring FoxNews too long....ugh.
The late Julius Streicher - who knew something about disinformation - once said, "something always sticks." That, and not simply reality, is what the Harris campaign must contend with. But I'm cynical enough to hope that Streicher's dictum was a double edged sword. After all, the guy ended up on the end of a rope.
After a successful career of a decade, by his standards.
To the people calling MAGA supporters garbage:
No, they are not. They are every single bit as human and valuable as you or me.
Kamala Harris herself has emphasized that, and when we say otherwise we undermine her campaign.
These used to be things that every civilized adult understood:
(1) The sinner is not the sin.
(2) The rank and file is not the leadership.
(3) Very few if any mistakes close the door to redemption.
These people are not going away. One way or another we are going to have to live with each other. Calling them garbage is dehumanizing; choosing to dehumanize is a very MAGA thing to do.
Empathy and respect are not optional; they are essential strategic and tactical skills. Without them, you do not know what you are fighting and you are essentially flailing around pointlessly in the dark --- a good way to lose.
Biden himself has said he did not mean to call people garbage, so when you say "Biden was right" you undermine his own message. Doubt he would appreciate that.
This vitriol accomplishes nothing. Zero. Nothing. And it risks doing a great deal of harm --- turning off undecided voters, hardening MAGA opposition, undermining Kamala Harris's vision, and sabotaging the chances for national healing.
"Orange Man Bad" is no excuse: the worse Trump/MAGA gets, the *more* important it is for us to keep our act together. And the uglier the outside world is, the more important it is for us to keep our inner worlds together.
If this is the first time you've met people who apall you, then welcome to a very large club. You'll survive it. If you're at a loss in how to fight this thing, then here's a clue: calling its rank and file "garbage" won't help.
This song says it all:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iSf8wxEttk
I guess for me it helps that I have beloved family members who are MAGA. I am dismayed and worried about their beliefs and support for Trump, but I am incapable to seeing them as garbage. I can generalize from them to the rest of Trump's supporters, though there are probably some on the very fringe (the ones who talk about shooting Democrats) who would no doubt be harder to like!
A quick PS here --
"Empathy" involves trying to figure out what the other guy is going through.
"Respect" is more about how you choose to behave than what your feelz are.
Neither requires you to like the other person.
Neither requires you to deny your emotions, but they do require you to manage them responsibly.
I doubt you will find any successful political operative (or manager, or rattlesnake wrangler, or writer, or lawyer, or hostage negotiator, or five-star general) who will tell you they can do their job effectively without these two skills. (And yes, they are skills, and they require work.)
We find it hard as children when we discover that life really isn't "fair"--that bad things do happen to good people, that sometimes we're blamed for something we didn't do. The measure of how we overcome it is how we turn that to the good. And it's not like we don't know what "good" is because we can see it in the consequences of our actions and reactions. I think we are so afraid of looking wimpy instead of saying "hey, that took courage and because I didn't react quickly, I was able to rise above it and accomplish...." It's not like we don't have examples. Virtually every single crime/legal show I watch--and I watch a lot--begins with someone lying about what they did and then trying to cover it up. Or not being honest about someone else's very dangerous actions. And things go from bad to worse. The ultimate maturity is to do good because it's simply good. But on the way, we do good because we know (or have a pretty good idea of) what the consequences will be if we don't.
♥️
Very good points Amanda. We who live in Trump country (can I refer to it like that) walk a very fine line. We need to get along with each other while quietly working on what Stephen Covey called “our circle of influence, circle of control.” He also talked about the space between stimulus and response—that we can stop ourselves from replying nastily to something nasty. It doesn’t help and only confirms the other person’s suspicions that we are hateful people.
That was an awesome video Amanda, and I cried...I have never heard of him, gotta check out more
And you are dead on with your post, I have been trying to blast this message for a long time...and I just did it on the WAPO comments
Together we stand, divided we fall...if we can't come together without the anger and hate, we will fail, no matter who wins
I can still remember when I first heard that song -- standing in the gift shop of The El Rancho Hotel in Gallup, NM ("Charm of Yesterday, Convenience of Tomorrow") in 2005. It was a jolt of optimism then and it is now. I guess we always need this reminder, one way or another!
If you haven't heard it/don't know about it, you might like this one....it's a favourite of mine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRGnftH_g4I
Yeah, I listened to a couple of other songs, may look up the CD
No, we shouldn't be calling them "garbage." Of course not.
But do NOT tell me I have to have "empathy and respect" for MAGA folks. They lost the right to that long ago. Does that mean I will go out and scream insults at them, call them "garbage," "stupid" or whatever? No. That's about as much respect as I can offer them: in other words, I will treat them w/respect but I will NEVER respect them. They are about to turn our government and our country upside down if they get their way and Trump wins a second term. They laugh at sexist and racist jokes. They are unflappable conspiracy theorists. And their refusal to see Trump for who he is (and make excuses for him/his behavior) will have *seriously* detrimental effects on ALL of us, non-MAGA and MAGA alike (they just don't realize it for whatever reason). Both domestically and abroad (i.e., our national security - no small thing!).
Now, should I have empathy for them? Let's look at the definition of "empathy," shall we:
empathy /ĕm′pə-thē/ noun
: vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another
I've tried to empathize, but, no, I cannot "vicariously experience" the feelings and thoughts of MAGA. How is that even possible? Empathize with the things I listed above (lies, conspiracies, racism/sexism, etc? That's a big NO.
"Hardening MAGA opposition." Are you kidding me? That ship has sailed.
But, hey, thanks for the lecture.
I'm glad you agree with my main point, which was that we should not use dehumanizing language.
I disagree that this was a lecture. I spoke strongly because I believe that this is a dangerous, destructive, and unnecessary trend.
I believe that the people who use this language have (1) many good ideas and (2) other ways to channel their frustrations. If I am right in this belief, then "cut it out with the garbage talk already" is not a big ask.
"These used to be things that every civilized adult understood:"
[Oh, so if we don't follow your list of standards we are "civilized adults? Don't tell me how I have to act to be "civilized." It's condescending as hell.]
"(1) The sinner is not the sin.
(2) The rank and file is not the leadership.
(3) Very few if any mistakes close the door to redemption."
[With the exception of #2, it sounds like you're trying to give us a religious lecture. Sin? Redemption? NOT MY STANDARDS.]
...
"Empathy and respect are not optional; they are essential strategic and tactical skills. Without them, YOU do not know what YOU are fighting and you are essentially flailing around pointlessly in the dark --- a good way to lose."
[Emphases in caps and added statements in brackets are mine]
"Empathy and respect are NOT OPTIONAL"? Sounds like a lecture to me. You are telling us how to feel and act. Nope.
You’re absolutely correct, but I think we should cut people a little slack for feeling so ungenerous towards our opponents this year. This is the most acrimonious campaign of our lives and it’s clear that one side is responsible.
Politically, this is the scariest situation we’ve ever faced in our lives. While Harris is conducting a normal campaign, Trump’s campaign is a cacophony of anger, hatred and threats. He has already incited his followers to violence once and is clearly ginning his people up for round two. Almost weekly, videos surface of his running mate insulting yet another group of people for their lifestyle or beliefs. It’s not hard to see why people on our side sometimes react to this in an intemperate manner. It’s hard to have empathy when mud is being thrown in your face.
Nobody is finding this easy. And "cutting people a little slack" does not mean condoning or encouraging harmful behavior.
You cut a drug addict slack. You cut a third-grader having a tantrum slack. That doesn't mean you condone or encourage their behavior. Understanding or not, and condoning or pushing back on, are two completely separate issues.
We also have to be the adults in the room and hope that, if we don’t have the authority to be the adults in the room, someone else is taking their position and authority seriously. Trump should never have been allowed to run for president given that so many of the people he incited on January 6th have been convicted.He should never have been granted immunity. There has indeed been a different yardstick for his behavior and we are all paying for it. Hopefully, next week the majority of the American people will speak and it will be a wake-up call for Congress and the judiciary that we want them to do their job of upholding the Constitution and not playing petty politics. Both sides.
A crack addict isn't supporting a candidate that has promised to take vengeance against his enemies, ignore the Constitution, dismantle our government to suit his needs, continue to line his own pockets, insults women and POC, wants to round up immigrants and put them in camps and on and on and on. Neither does a third-grader.
This comparison is pretty flawed. You are really missing the forest through the trees, Amanda. Going from "we shouldn't call them garbage" (we shouldn't) to telling us we should empathize with them. It's quite the stretch.
I gave you a "like" but it's the same thing as not blaming the German people for Hitler. You don't just give them a blank "bye" when they were living next to Jewish families who were torn from their homes.
They didn't stand up at the beginning, middle or end....they just sat there.
I get your point, but I think you should also get mine....these people are being willfully ignorant and it's at the expense of this country. They might be "good" people but they are NOT being good citizens.
Nobody has disagreed with that, certainly not me. That is no excuse for calling them garbaage.
Using Jeff's example, I will happily call German citizens who stood by, and in some cases turned in Jewish people in the lead up to the Holocaust, "garbage."
They were complicit! As are SO *many* MAGA supporters. We are possibly at the precipice of a dangerous time for our country.
Example: Is it okay to call the worst of the rioters on 1/6 who assaulted police officers "garbage"? Or should I empathize and respect them? Nah. I'm going with "garbage." I'm not on some sort of redemption mission.
C'mon.
I've seen you post this before, and I agree with the overall sentiment, not all people who vote for Trump are bad people. Nor do I believe that there is a correlation with intelligence.
What I do believe is that most Trump supporters are weak. They have something in them that has made them vulnerable to his con and in some cases the Republican con.
I go back and forth on this, but sometimes I resent that weakness because those of us who aren't weak enough to fall for the con are the ones left to deal with the results of their weakness. They get to indulge in their fantasies while we are stuck in reality dealing with the fallout from their fantasies.
I see your point, Ray, but what you are describing sounds like a large chunk of my adult life. It *isn't* fair. We *don't* get treated equally, we don't all have the same task, we're not going to get credit for everything we do, and @$$holes are going to get away with xit.
When it's something that affects us personally, e.g. in the workplace or seminar room, we learn to be strategic with our complaints or suffer the consequences. (1) this has consequences too, and even if it didn't, (2) nothing is an excuse for calling human beings garbage.
There is also no need for us to decide whether they are weak or not. Making these judgments is work that we are not obligated to do and cannot do competently. It simply doesn't matter, and voicing our speculations about it helps nothing.
You are a pretty evolved thinker. I'm not quite there yet.
For me, acknowledging their weakness is preferable to labeling them as bad people.
I'm really sorry for piling on Amanda's posts. I actually *can* understand her thinking. But I classify it as "naïve," not "evolved."
Let me explain: When I think about things and form my opinions and actions, I think of real-world consequences, not what I wish the world/people would or could be. It's not all "Peace, love, and Bobby Sherman" out there. Pretending anyone can be "redeemed" just doesn't match what's happens IRL. My "empathizing" with MAGA folks isn't going to change a darn thing. And those folks are going to cause some REAL damage if they're successful in bringing a fascist, malignant narcissist who is hell bent on destroying our government.
As someone named "Sean" said below: "Some people deserve scorn."
Well I doubt "evolved" (though thanks for the thought). And I do see what you're saying.
For some people it’s not a con. He said he would cut taxes for the rich and he did. He said he would weaken environmental protections and he did. He did his best to destroy Obamacare. Yes, a lot of his followers are weak and fell for the message that he cares about working people, but some are selfish rich people who want to pay less taxes. Some want him to deport 15 million people. Some vote for anybody who claims to be against abortion. And some just know deep in their hearts that Trump hates the same people they do.
Fair points. It's not universal, there are different groups.
I love the attempt to try and equate one Biden gaffe with a decade plus of horrific statements and horrific actions.
Some behavior deserves scorn.
This is a completely false statement. Nobody here has done anything of the sort.
So you're saying there are very good people on both sides?
If you are saying that to echo Trump's statement about Charlottesville: absolutely not, and what bollocks to even suggest it.
If you are saying that with some other meaning, I am not sure why you would find it profitable to speculate on something neither of us can know.
The sort of dehumanizing condemnation that I am referring to is a pointless waste of time at best and at worst can do real harm.
I think the Biden comments may be good for Harris. Puerto Ricans may appreciate him standing up for them, and they are the ones who matter.
Re Vance: Despite the bland smile (John Roberts has one too), Vance is okay with racism, though his person of color wife may not, and silently supports The Great Replacement Theory that includes his wife’s mixed-race children. Despicable irony.
Racism is not just a white vs. everyone else kind of thing. My neighbor is Indian, and my understanding from her is that there's plenty of racism and bias in India based on skin tone.
Caste prejudice in the US has so far survived legal challenges.
Re: the guy in the background behind Jill Stein: I'm pretty sure it's Forrest Gump. Either him or Zelig.