On the second episode of WTF 2.0, Lawfare’s Ben Wittes joined JVL to talk if the courts can really stop Trump, how impeachment is essentially dead and more.
Join us next Tuesday for the next WTF 2.0 right here with The Pillar's Ed Condon.
Show Notes
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Bulwark+ Takes brings you bite-sized takes on the news of the day from the entire Bulwark team. This is the home to ad-free video shorts, Bulwark+ member-only livestreams, and live event archives. The news cycle doesn’t slow down, and neither do we.
Bulwark+ Takes brings you bite-sized takes on the news of the day from the entire Bulwark team. This is the home to ad-free video shorts, Bulwark+ member-only livestreams, and live event archives. The news cycle doesn’t slow down, and neither do we.Listen on
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Appears in episode
Benjamin Wittes
Jonathan V. Last
Recent Episodes
Can't imagine what Ben is going thru re Ukraine.
Loved the discussion starting at 27:09. Loved how Ben's "not" getting in the middle of JVL and Sarah's ongoing argument about the voters - haha. JVL and Ben are right. This is who the U.S. now is. I could even argue it's who the country has been for a very long time; it's just that T gave people permission to show their true colors.
My wife and I have this discussion/disagreement all the time. We are both never Trumpers, but she feels Trump just revealed who people already were, I think Trump led them into a negative direction. She also believes her perspective being from a family Mexican immigrants gives her a different point of view.
I think both are true: this is who a large % of the country has always been, AND he encourages people to be their worst selves.
I can easily imagine what Ben is going through re Ukraine because I'm going through it too. Putin is trying to reverse the historical verdict of our glorious victory over communism, and useful idiot Trump is helping him. I played a small role in our victory in the Cold War, and I take this personally. I am also an Orthodox Christian watching my religion be subverted by an antichrist.
Some days I wonder how many more times my heart can break - for others, not me personally - before there's nothing left to break. So sorry for the shock, betrayal, abandonment, etc. that millions here and around the world are experiencing right now b/c of the (to use JVL's label) wicked U.S voters.
As for the religious aspect, I've been anti-religion for decades b/c of the despicable church I was raised in; but for sincere people like you this has got to be beyond belief. The hypocrisy is truly off the charts. I see pick-ups around where I live w/ stickers in the back window of three crosses, and bumper stickers that say, "God, guns, and Trump." Wherever the soul of Jesus is these days, it would be fascinating to have a conversation w/ him about the atrocities being committed in his name. Hopefully you're familiar w/ Tim Alberta; I think of him often. His second book is one among many that has brought me solace in the sense of knowing there are still really good people out there who see the truth and aren't afraid to speak it.
Best to you and thank you for your service.
I'm an Atlantic subscriber, so I'm familiar with Tim Alberta - and with Peter Wehner, as well. But my favorite is Tom Nichols, a fellow Eastern Orthodox Christian and Russia expert.
Just to be clear, the antichrist I was referring to was Putin, though I think the label probably fits Trump as well. Under Putin, the Russian Orthodox Church is working as closely with the FSB as it did with the KGB under the Soviets. In Russian-controlled areas of Ukraine, churches of the OCU are closed and their clergy arrested or worse. The Moscow Patriarchate is also at work around the world, stirring up the laity against their bishops, starting schismatic churches, and posing as "conservative" defenders of a fundamentalist (and non-traditional) interpretation of Orthodoxy. Victory in Ukraine would embolden the Russians to continue their worldwide troublemaking.
Ukrainians are literally ten times as religious as Russians. Russia cannot produce enough priests to staff its churches, so it has always imported priests from Ukraine. But Ukrainians no longer want to serve in Russia. Thus, Russia's war against Ukraine can only damage what survives of Russian Orthodox spirituality.
In American Orthodoxy, we are currently experiencing an overwhelming wave of inquirers. My old parish, which typically has 150 at Liturgy on Sunday, currently has around 50 inquirers and catechumens. Three years ago, in the wake of Covid, we had a lot of alt-right types visiting our churches, but now we seem to be getting people looking for spirituality, not politics. Since most of our bishops come from overseas, they tend not to be not deeply enmeshed in American politics.
Tom is one of my absolute favorite people in the world; they don't get any better IMO. I don't watch Charlie since he left TB; but Tom was on w/ him a couple of days ago and I'm halfway thru it. I don't know of anyone else w/ his combo of 100% accurate moral compass, brilliance, and kindness. Truth be told tho, he hooked me when he wrote the Atlantic article about how Carla saved him.
Sounds like your spiritual community is headed in a positive direction, which is heartening.
I did a quick search. Tim did a podcast episode with Russell Moore about a month ago, and he has give some public lectures. His bios always describe him as a writer for The Atlantic, in the present tense. Maybe he's doing research for something big - e.g., another book or a cover article.
His latest Atlantic article was published on November 2.
I rarely hear his name any more, and have wondered about him many times. I hope he didn't just get entirely dispirited.
◦ Farmers in Kansas are so sorry they voted for trump. The orange POS has made these proud people welfare farmers.
◦ This is what happens when you (MAGA) elect a criminal.
◦ Next to close: The Department of Education. Trump wants you poor and stupid. People are more easily led if they are poor and stupid.
◦ When medicaid and social security are gone, maybe (MAGA) will wake up to the theft.
I'm looking forward to the Escalation Podcast.
It takes time for legal challenges to DOGE malfeasances to be completely adjudicated - up to SCOTUS. In the meantime, all staffers in the affected agencies who have been removed and those NGOs whose funding has been ended will not be available for reconstitution.
Excellent discussion! Looking forward to the next episode.
Having Wittes explain things so plainly and with expertise is calming. Thank you for having him on alongside JVL, my favorite catastrophizer!
To watch the "Escalation" event at the Brookings Institution live on February 24, here is the link:
https://www.brookings.edu/events/trumps-return-and-the-fate-of-ukraine/
JVL is one of my favorite Bulwark opinion leaders, especially with Sarah and Tim, and I always appreciate Ben Wittes's legal analysis. I am also a staunch advocate of the rule of law. However, my main fear after listening to this podcast is that the amount of time from now until the courts intervene to hold Musk/Trump accountable for the lawlessness (including possibly defying court orders) will allow not only for the destruction to be done and possibly be irreversible, but that by that time nobody (the public at large, voters) will care - too procedural, too many technical details, short memories. Simply: It will leave ample time for them to boil the frog.
I feel the same. I realized today that I was wise to not become a lawyer (a thought I had once). I would have nowhere near the patience for the process that it would appear you have to have. I realize that's what makes the law a check. I am just worried in this instance that, as you say, it will be way, way too late. :/
Very interesting and informative!! Sound could do with improving though
While I am absolutely sure that Trump has never read a line of Shakespeare, I am pretty sure that some of the evil cabal directing him have. “The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers” (“Henry VI, Part 2”).
Excellent. Two of my favorite whiz kids.
Although I definitely can see Ben's point about what this CIty Bank take back might portend, I have a different thought. What if the point of waiting for the funds to be dispersed and then called back is the legal question? Since the funds have been dispersed, Congresses' Constitutional obligations have been met, and if the Executive wants to call it back, oh well, too bad, so sad. I can think of more than two SCOTUS justices who will bite at that worm.
Minor correction: Disbursed, not dispersed.
I disagree that impeachment is broken. It's the Senate that is broken because the Senators failed to vote to impeach and instead voted fir party and self interest over the law and country. as far as Clinton is concerned, I'd hardly compare his lack of morals and abuse of the office to take advantage of Ms Lewinsky with the outright corruption and abandonment of the country and his duty by Trump. I just don't see it. I don't sppyof it and he should have been disciplined but impeachment for his lack of morals is a bit much. I sense others may feel differently simply out of dislike of Clinton and his policies....
No, the system is being failed by the Senate.
Clinton was impeached for lying about what he did (not technically for what he did). He was under oath, and he lied. This one lies every breath and doesn’t believe in any oath save a loyalty oath to him
I came here to say exactly this. I will add that Impeachment is still an option, but seems less likely to result in removal from office unless the Senate is controlled by the other Party. Or the violation is so egregious… (but wait a violent insurrection didn’t meet that so not sure what it would take…)
Does the president's pardon power extend to findings of/punishments for civil and criminal contempt? I assume so but maybe there is some separation of powers argument to run? And are there any state actions that can be taken in this context of a president acting beyond his power?
Civil contempt is not a crime, and can't be pardoned.
Great guest; knowledgeable, well-spoken, honest and very likable! Thanks for sharing with us, Ben!!
Agree! I do not want to dis anyone but I find Ben much preferable to George Conway.
Ben doesn't bloviate, he explains legal issues thoroughly and he doesn't grandstand nor interrupt his interlocutor. Would like to see much more of Ben!
So interesting to hear the intricate arguments on the interpretation of clauses in the constitution. I feel like I was in a law class! Thanks, Ben
I'm expecting that soon all these lawsuits will be "randomly" reassigned to the District Court for the Southern District of Florida where Judge Aileen Cannon can dismiss them all in one fell swoop.
Ben is back on the Bulwark!! Woohoo!!
Courts and the rule of law only work when they are respected. t***p/Musk and their minions have zero respect for the rule of law except when it helps them. t***p is not stupid, there is a reason he took DOJ and the FBI first. Who is going to arrest federal law breakers? Who is going to prosecute them? Think you know the answer. The supreme court, any court is moot when it comes to federal law. I am more and more convinced it is over.
Funny that Ben still thinks his buddy blackout Brett might come through.
Oh and an extra fuck you for comparing Afgahnistan to this. I cannot comprehend how people expected to lose the war better.
We had already won the war in Afghanistan, and Trump unilaterally forfeited our victory so that he could take credit for "ending a forever war".
So is this the antithesis of the case which overturned Chevron last year? There SCOTUS ruled unless legislation specifically spelled out N was to be done, an agency (so part of the executive branch) couldn't take that action. Now it's even though Congress has specifically spelled out, "spend this money on this item" the executive doesn't have to obey?
There is not necessarily an inconsistency here. In both cases, it's about separation of powers. Chevron gave executive agencies too much latitude in exercising legislative power, which belongs to Congress. With the Impoundment Control Act, Congress took advantage of presidential weakness in the wake of Watergate to usurp an executive prerogative - or, at least, that is what the administration will argue - and it's not total nonsense like a lot of their arguments.
i'm all out of irony
So sorry, but I have run out of bandwidth for all of this new stuff.
I just wish they'd release these as a podcast mini, if you will, instead of us having to search around when we see something about it on Bluesky.
I get a notification via Substack but when I click on it it just opens Substack to the last thing I read. Then I go to the Bulwark channel and the live videos aren’t there either. I am a subscriber so I am stumped.
I get emails and/or see them on YouTube.
Here’s the same question I put to Tim Miller. Now that Trump and Musk see the judiciary, especially district court judges, as the enemy, might they try to punish them by reducing their funding. They can’t reduce judges’ salaries, but they could reduce support for the US Marshals, who come out of the DOJ. And could they cut funding for infrastructure and court operations?
Budgets are matters usually or always of compromise in Congress. No side gets all of what it wants. T is trying, in ignoring Congress' allocation of money, to get everything he wants. Why should Congress go to the trouble of making compromises if the president can just get whatever he wants? Why should Congress convene at all, why should we maintain a tripartite pretense when it's all said and done, the president is an absolute monarch? Something's not right.
True. But other recent presidents have also tried to avoid negotiating with Congress - most notoriously Obama's phone-and-pen tactic. What's wrong is that we have an electorate that often punishes politicians for compromising.
Right, it changes the game completely. What I'm hoping for is that the sheer egregiousness of this hits enough people over the head that congress starts growing a pair and doing its job.
He made an excellent bridge between JVL and Sarah’s point of contention. I still think it’s the too-stupid-to-live bloc but after seeing others comment, I think we can add a Peppermint Petty voting bloc too.
The best investment I ever made in my life is my Swiss passport. We're Geneva bound until further notice...
Fascinating. Especially that section about civil contempt.
A lot of people voted because they wanted to hurt people who made them mad. A lot of this is about people being angry at liberal (and often stupid) ideas like pronouns. These people are willing to destroy the country because they are miffed that they had to wear masks during COVID. They don't care about anything but themselves. These are truly unserious, self-involved babies who have never grown up.
I disagree with Ben and Sarah, I actually think this is a useful operative lens to explore. The people who voted for Trump because they weren't paying close attention can be the target of pursuassion and using new methods of communication to reach. The people who affirmatively voted for Trump will never be persuaded to switch sides, but they can be persuaded to stay home. These are the "they're hurting the wrong people" voters, and I think they can be targeted and demoralized enough to keep them from voting.
It’s said that the only thing that can stop an autocratic or fascist regime is the rising of the people. They must shine the light and march in massive numbers. People must be the tipping point in a democracy.
From what I’m seeing, America will go as quietly as Hungary did. I really hope I’m wrong.
And the people who want this own most of the guns.
i think a lot of folks did vote to hurt someone else but not them.
my heart. it is heavy.
Look at this breathtaking analysis of all the court judgments becoming null and void: "Trump struck back in a coordinated assault on all fronts. He's not waiting for the courts to do the right thing." https://www.coffeeandcovid.com/p/swamp-apocalypse-wednesday-february?source=pmbug.com
Post your MAGA propaganda elsewhere. This crowd isn't interested in it.
So sorry -- I read it wrong. I thought he was critical when he was praising Trump. My bad. I'm with you. Look at my Substack to see how fiercely I am in the Trump opposition.
Yay Wittes is wearing a springer spaniel shirt! Sorry I have to look for something good how ever small so my blood pressure won't spike so high. Thanks for the pod!
We have to do SOMETHING!
If not, the people must!
Sure hope they can and do. It’s their constitutional duty.