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Transcript
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SPEAKER 1
All right, we are live. All right, we are live. Hello, friends. I'm JVL from The Bulwark, and I am joined today by the legendary Paul Krugman, who is now of Substack. His Substack is just paulkrugman.substack.com. No fancy names. No, he just branded it the way you should. Put your name on the building.
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Hey, Van Jones, how are you? Been dying to get you on this show, Van. So, Paul, we're going to talk economics and tariffs, and I'm going to let you cook, and then we're going to have to talk a little bit about state terrorism and the collapse of the American order.
0:41
Although, in a weird way, these two things are probably linked somehow. Yeah. I guess I want to start by just teeing you up for the cost of chaos, because my understanding has been that for 80 years, stability and transparency and the rule of law were America's biggest advantages in

Columnist and economist Paul Krugman joins JVL on the latest WTF 2.0 to talk Trump’s tariff madness, the self-inflicted economic crisis and the president’s malignant stupidity.

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WTF 2.0 is a pop-up show on Substack during the first 100 days of second Trump administration. Watch previous episodes, here. As always: Watch, listen, and leave a comment.

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Discussion about this video

User's avatar
Deirdre Browner's avatar

Very smart and helpful in understanding the likely economic impact of the Trump tariffs. I hope that Paul is right in his estimation of the percentage of Americans that knowingly voted for this, that only every third person in the country is authoritarian instead of half. Either is mind boggling to me, but I live in a blue part of California. Do we wait to see how quickly and how much Trump's approval ratings fall? Any predictions on a tipping point?

The Bulwark is now a part of my daily read/listen and I very much appreciate what you do.

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Mary Susan Hunter's avatar

I tend to lean towards Paul’s analysis of the electorate which although grim is a little bit less grim than JVL’s. Interesting point that many of the western democracies have a certain percent of their electorate with autocratic tendencies, but because of the multi-party systems that exist in most of them it is easier to define about what percentage as opposed to our two party system that many people, including myself are often frustrated with.

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Christopher Barden's avatar

Really appreciate JVL's journalism.

My first real impression of the Bulwark team was watching a discussion between JVL and Tim regarding Trump's pre-inauguration crypto scam. At first, I misinterpreted JVL's remarks about people who bought the Trump memecoin and wrote an email to Bulwark about it. Got a very thoughtful response and winded up buying a subscription. (Good work, Jim.)

Now a bona fide JVL fan and appreciate the fact that despite his informed pessimism about what is currently happening in our country, the Bulwark team continues to get out informative interviews and news at such a fast pace.

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Oregon Larry's avatar

It's late and I haven't read the comments below, but THAT WAS AWESOME! And I subscribe to Paul's column and read it daily. Two geniuses melding their minds. Thank you, both JVL and Paul.. I am a better person!

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Scott Smith's avatar

The only people who can be described as having revealed a preference for authoritarianism are the people who voted for Trump on the primary, when the alternative was a non- or anti-authoritarian Republican. Others might simply see authoritarianism as the lesser of two evils compared to a Democrat.

Instead of banging your head over such voters not getting that actually whatever wrong headed policy package the Democrat might advance is the lesser of two evils compared to authoritarianism, consider that a different voting system might make that preference irrelevant. If Democratic voters' preferences among Republicans would be counted, any nontrivial portion of Republicans opposing authoritarianism would combine with Democrats' preferences for anti-authoritarian Republicans over authoritarian Republicans to ensure that no authoritarian would ever win.

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Lalla Ward's avatar

Terrific. Illuminating. Clear. Terrifying.

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Albert Akhmetov's avatar

Hello JVL,

I don't want to be alarmist, but I've seen this post on Twitter.

https://x.com/Justin_Halford_/status/1912031133140664623

And I wonder if it's time to demand proof of life of Abrego Garcia and Hernandez Romeo

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Jackie Banks's avatar

Headlines: TRUMP MAKES SMUGGLING GREAT AGAIN!!!!

Since trump has made following the law “optional” why should anyone acknowledge the tariffs? Who is even available to determine whether or not these tariffs are paid????

The rest of the world should just unite and isolate the US until it reigns in it’s corrupt chaos causing narcissistic “strongman”!!!

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Aviva Patt's avatar

I’m not concerned with whether we can come back to the center or normality. I’m 100% certain that we will. My concern is all the people who will suffer, perhaps die, before the nation wakes up to what is going on. How much irreparable damage will be done to some people’s lives before we gat back to normal?

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Mirabelle's avatar

We're already seeing a rise in investments in other currencies. How many people can pay higher prices, instead of curtailing spending which contributes to a recession?

Trump supporters will more likely respond to a damaged economy more than the deportations, since they don't believe they could happen to them, where a worsened economy affects them immediately.

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Terence Rafferty's avatar

When Trump tries to shut down peaceful public protest against him …

let’s all just make damn sure we keep protesting.

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Debra K's avatar

💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯

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Katinka's avatar

Really great interview, I loved hearing from Paul Krugman on this crisis. And the clear articulation of low negative results, medium and high I think could probably prove very prescient.

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DanceThisMessAround's avatar

This was so good and thank you to Mr. Krugman for calling out the challenges in operationalizing the tariffs. I commented before that I know of two boutique customs brokers that are giving up and shutting down. They cannot retool to support the requirements. This means smaller businesses will suffer as they require more attention, the big guns will charge more and take longer to process.

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Christine's avatar

As a country that operates largely on credit, antagonizing the nation that holds our debt doesn’t seem like a brilliant idea.

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Democracy Lover's avatar

Could cryptocurrency become the world’s currency? Now that Trump is a crypto billionaire, couldn’t that be a goal of his?

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Stephanie Bourne's avatar

Seems crypto threads all over the place between different powerbrokers who want just that -- Don Jr, Musk and the usual Techbros, definitely Vance, dictators like Bukele, etc.

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Kentuckistan's avatar

oh ya

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Nathan Gervais's avatar

"will we have 2026 midterms?" is the question I keep asking.

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Anne Logan's avatar

And if we even have midterms, will they be meaningless?

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David MacNeil's avatar

Its a good thing people can say the r-word again because those Wall Street / Silicon Valley guys turned in the the Scott Bakula gif.

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Reldas's avatar

Just imagine it…. capitalists… destroying their own economies???!!

I mean, who could have ever predicted such a preposterous occurrence?!

Every time he issues another executive order I spend at least 20 minutes on Duolingo learning Mandarin. Oh and I have completely memorized the first verse of “Red Sun In The Sky” in both English and Mandarin. I’m a survivor first lol.

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J AZ's avatar

I'm gonna learn to rock out on the erhu, maybe can find that tune in my Mel Bay beginner's book 🎼 😣

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David MacNeil's avatar

Could "the plan" be to devastate financial markets so badly the world has no choice but to turn to crypto for international trade?

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Four Quartets's avatar

The tariffs, without doubt, have many problems. But Paul Krugman for economic advice??? He's been wrong on every economic policy issue for 30 years.

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Greg WF's avatar

Well, at least he admits when he’s wrong, unlike this one half-witted, big-mouthed, shitbird dictator, guy I know.

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Melanie Reed's avatar

I've heard several stories about small to medium sized businesses who might have the money for the tariff or who can borrow it, but wondering how to get to Long Beach to write a check. There is just so much stupidity at every point in this process, it is still hard to believe this is happening here. I have lately been feeling relieved that my father is not around to see this... he fought in the Korean War and was a very accomplished and successful man - he would be heartbroken by what this country is becoming.

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M. Layfield's avatar

I agree. My father fought in WWII and the Korean conflict. There is no way they could have fathomed how we wound up in such a dilemma.

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Kathleen Waslov's avatar

Goal is not to negotiate tariffs, but collect them, use to build sovereign fund, invest in cryptocurrency, lower federal income tax rates. hasn't he said that?

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Theresa Vitzthum's avatar

Trump says a lot of things he does not mean. Whatever people will buy into is what he will say.

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Jeffrey Gaines's avatar

One of Trump’s stated goals is most definitely to “negotiate” or force tariffs on essentially all countries, w the expected exception of Russia, ruled by Trump’s dictator mentor, Putin.

Another goal is to threaten and attack other countries w tariffs, in order to dominate them, since Trump is a sadist who enjoys dominating others.

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Travis's avatar

Krugman lays out my worst fear as well: that China becomes incentivized to take Taiwan since they're getting no cooperation out of us anyway, and they do this before we can significantly stand up our own domestic chip manufacturing. Then they control the rare earth element supply *and* the advanced semiconductor prefabs (both are critical to our tech and defense sectors).

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Greg WF's avatar

I hate to be even more gloomy than JVL, but a color revolution isn’t getting us out of this shit pile mess we are in. These maniacs keep telling us what heinous deed they are gonna perpetrate next.

I listened to Pod Save America, and they were discussing the kidnapping and rendition of those victims of tyranny to El Salvador. They mentioned Trump saying let’s send our “home growns.” In the next breath the host wondered out loud if warning that U.S. citizens might be next could be hyperbole.

WTF?

Trump told me he was gonna punch me. He’s not gonna punch me!

He punched me.

Trump says he’s gonna punch me in the kidney (That hurts really, really bad, by the way). He’s not gonna punch me in the kidney!

He punched me in the kidney.

Trump pulled out a tire iron. He says he’s gonna bash my brains out. He’s not gonna bash my brains out…………………..

Come on!

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Lawrence Evers's avatar

When you seek a deep dive into economic theories he's the man. Good call on inviting him on. Thanks!

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Karen Shore's avatar

Lack of newspapers, destruction of education mainly by R party, no emphasis on civics - history - critical thinking in school, TV for kids and adults more mindless and focused on meanness or making fun of people, Fox News, etc - so many things that brought this about.

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Colt Stewart's avatar

A very important interview. Thanjs.

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Yklife's avatar

One of the worst guests that JVL has hosted.

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Greg WF's avatar

Why, what a scandalous thing to write. I’m not bragging, but I’ve been told at least once by the guy that looks at me in the mirror, that I possess a Superior Intellect, thus, I find your unsupported, absolutist comment amusing.

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M. Layfield's avatar

Seriously?

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