Did not know yet they were MAGAs, when one pushed my kids out of the church. The evangelical ones started showing up in my closest Catholic church in the mid 1990s. Half were very decent, the other half, questionable, some very proud of pushing the regulars' children out.
When one was confronted, she boasted she and her father were extra-good Christians, that our children were 'too smart", that ours should go all the way down to the university for church. (13-15 year-olds with 20-22 year-olds? what?)
She went after the teen boys first, so we separated the boys and taught them separately. We were not in the room with her and the girls, so were not to find out, until later, she had berated the smarter ones in front of the others until some cried.
Confronted a second time, she said she was only teaching what her father taught her. She was mystified her brothers quit going to church, given her father was so right.
Finding other of our girls had been upset, more irate parents than us, more of us confronted her, together. Though she was white, she said she could not get along with the white girls, needed to teach just the Hispanics. We changed churches for a year, went to a less diverse church nearby, second closest, ironically, less diverse, as more Hispanic.
After a year, friends invited us back, to an easter musical at our old church. as they were singing. We went. My daughter then sat in the car afterward and cried for an hour. After that, she avoided church, any and all churches, went with me to Xmas Mass twice, to please me. She liked seeing all the solar panels at American University in DC, so may be having a re-think. We'll see.
I had not heard of MAGA yet, but that was what that ill woman seemed to be. Her ideas, her hatred, her need to punish, until somebody cried.
Recommend looking up Joseph Bernardin and his "Seamless Garment" and "Common Ground" reasoning.
The 1980s "stacking" of the US supreme court and of the US cardinals with conservatives were similar to each other? Reagan's adding of some ultra-conservatives was not yet controversial, as the court was still "balanced"? still had liberal and moderate and semi-conservatives chosen by earlier Presidents? One or two popes more conservative than the popes preceding them did essentially the same thing post Vatican II. The new US choices adhered to conservative Catholic doctrine, put longer-standing Catholic dogma, more liberal, "on the back burner", a situation which Pope Francis has been correcting . (Earlier, Pope Leo had been liberal on labor policies, with Pope John 23rd liberal in his Vatican II reforms.)
Why was Bernardin allowed in to the Bishops, then in to the archBishops in the Reagan era, then into the Cardinals, though not conservative? Maybe as Bernardin had a gift for talking to everyone?
The person the Democrats chose to respond to Trump's speech Mar 4 would be in Bernardin's vein.
The Klan was still active in SC when Bernardin grew up there. The Klan was violently racist and anti-Semitic and anti-labor union, with anti-Catholic "another part of the same thing".
In the weeks after MLK died, Bernardin, for some time in Atlanta, was sent north, to Cincinnati and Chicago.
One biography of him is at the Digitalcommons of cbsSJU.edu (Jesuit place, but he was Franciscan). It's in an issue of "The Journal of Social Encounters", in which William Droel of Chicago reviewed a book, "Joseph Bernardin: Seeking Common Ground" (pub. 2016, by Stephen Millies, of Collegeville, Minn.)
He was selected/appointed as secretary to the Council of US Bishops. In 1983, in Chicago, Bernardin headed a committee on War and Peace. He'd insisted on diverse members from the clergy hierarchy. They ranged, from military, to Pax Christi. They interviewed experts and lay people.
Their report was criticized by public officials of the Reagan years(1981 to 1989) and by what Droel called "neo-conservative Catholics" (future MAGA?).
Bernardin eventually expanded the committee's War and Peace conclusions into his seamless garment theology. (MAGA wears just one sleeve of Christianity, tearing the rest of the Christian garment into shreds?)
Side note-Bernardin discussed the sex abuse crisis, did not stick his head in the sand. Some sociologists say the crisis was a consequence of a shortage of priests, places not willing to fire priests based on rumor and gossip when there was a shortage. (Studies of incest point out "private places" as fostering that problem inside families.. Churches that had no private spots inside had less trouble, as anybody could walk through, at any time.)
Protestants have had clergy affairs with females in the congregations at times of clergy shortages. Another thing-- The Catholics and the Boy Scouts kept records of accusations, while many Protestants did not. (No records is not the same as sinless.)
Seriously, the world is so split now that if a liberal Pope is chosen, there could actually be a split in the Church, with all the Rad Trads, racists and haters starting their own MAGA America First Catholic Church, where a Scandanavian suntanned blue eyed Jesus is a venture capitalist in an Armani Suit who dispenses grace dividends on the rich and frowns upon the lazy poor.
In Phoenix, our Catholic Deacon gave a homily about feeding, clothing, and housing the refugees at the Arizona border, since this is what Jesus commands of us. People stood up and walked out of the Church. This is the state of spiritual rot in this country. People want to be seen as good Catholics who attend Mass, but how dare anyone demand that they act like Jesus!
72 years old, and actually believe that my Catholic baptism and confirmation has put 2 marks on my soul of spiritual protection. Maybe that is why I find MAGA inexplicable to me. While I find some of the Catholic dogma idiotic in the 21st century (the ban on any form of birth control, the obsession against gay people), it is still my spiritual home. Thank you for this wonderful discussion. I am a full time caregiver for someone with Alzheimers, Parkinsons, COPD and AFIB. If not for the Catholic Charity known as FSL, I would be on my own (they provide counseling for caregivers and day care for patients).
Good discussion and overview on the attacks on Catholic Charities.
But we need to stop speaking of Christian Nationalism (CN) as a form of Christianity. First, the dominant characteristic is its racism rather than either Christianity or nationalism. It is not our nation above all other nations but our white male nation above all others. Can one think about CN without thinking about race and who is excluded? Is there an element of black CN or female led CN that comes to mind or that's showing itself (although some women are CN adherents).
If one looks at immigration is there a major CN stance against white Scandinavians or even other white Europeans?
If one looks at how the actions play out, the attacks are more against anyone who is not white male more than not American. It is certainly anti-Islamic (not sure about how Buddhists or Hindus, e.g, fit in ), anti-white liberals and in many ways anti-women. Because of christian evangelicals' pro-Israel stance it would seem that anti-semitism would be only a small aspect of CN but attacks on Jews are increasing. And, theoretically even the evangelical views of Israel are that the prophecy is that at the second coming will be in Israel, and then all will become saved Christians or be damned and Judaism will disappear.
So it is a movement made up almost solely of christians but CN is far more a group that defines itself by race and even gender than by christianity.
"we need to stop speaking of Christian Nationalism (CN) as a form of Christianity. First, the dominant characteristic is its racism rather than either Christianity or nationalism. It is not our nation above all other nations but our white male nation above all others"
Thank you, JVL, for helping restore my Catholicism. I have had to reduce my charitable contributions as I’ve aged and been retired - but I’ve stuck with Catholic Charities mainly because of its work at the US-Mex. border, and its work feeding the poor. I am happy to continue to support CC and, by extension, my very favorite Pope of all time, Pope Francis. I mourn in advance the world’s loss of this gracious, loving religious leader whom we are likely never to see again (at least in the next several generations). You are loved in our house, JVL. Again, thank you.
Trump has been arguing to teach the Bible in school. Someone needs to put together a campaign that takes all the passages from the Bible that support DEI and argue in support of Trump's push and that it's a pro DEI platform he is supporting.
Can't wait to see how fast they start trying to ban the Bible
Please continue to have Ed or JD on occasionally in this format. I work for a Catholic archdiocese and read the Pillar regularly for news in my field. They are straight shooters and your conversation was valuable for many listeners. As you suggested in conversation, most Catholics who consider themselves faithful simply don’t know actual Catholic Social Teaching…or they refuse to assent to it.
Lapsed Catholic here.. I've always believed the church became more conservative as the moderates, like my family, stopped participating amid the scandal and lack of understanding by the priests about modern challenges like divorce and women's health
It's not "shifting" as much as "shrinking", so the voices that were drowned out before are now the main message
Will try to check out The Pillar.
Did not know yet they were MAGAs, when one pushed my kids out of the church. The evangelical ones started showing up in my closest Catholic church in the mid 1990s. Half were very decent, the other half, questionable, some very proud of pushing the regulars' children out.
When one was confronted, she boasted she and her father were extra-good Christians, that our children were 'too smart", that ours should go all the way down to the university for church. (13-15 year-olds with 20-22 year-olds? what?)
She went after the teen boys first, so we separated the boys and taught them separately. We were not in the room with her and the girls, so were not to find out, until later, she had berated the smarter ones in front of the others until some cried.
Confronted a second time, she said she was only teaching what her father taught her. She was mystified her brothers quit going to church, given her father was so right.
Finding other of our girls had been upset, more irate parents than us, more of us confronted her, together. Though she was white, she said she could not get along with the white girls, needed to teach just the Hispanics. We changed churches for a year, went to a less diverse church nearby, second closest, ironically, less diverse, as more Hispanic.
After a year, friends invited us back, to an easter musical at our old church. as they were singing. We went. My daughter then sat in the car afterward and cried for an hour. After that, she avoided church, any and all churches, went with me to Xmas Mass twice, to please me. She liked seeing all the solar panels at American University in DC, so may be having a re-think. We'll see.
I had not heard of MAGA yet, but that was what that ill woman seemed to be. Her ideas, her hatred, her need to punish, until somebody cried.
Recommend looking up Joseph Bernardin and his "Seamless Garment" and "Common Ground" reasoning.
The 1980s "stacking" of the US supreme court and of the US cardinals with conservatives were similar to each other? Reagan's adding of some ultra-conservatives was not yet controversial, as the court was still "balanced"? still had liberal and moderate and semi-conservatives chosen by earlier Presidents? One or two popes more conservative than the popes preceding them did essentially the same thing post Vatican II. The new US choices adhered to conservative Catholic doctrine, put longer-standing Catholic dogma, more liberal, "on the back burner", a situation which Pope Francis has been correcting . (Earlier, Pope Leo had been liberal on labor policies, with Pope John 23rd liberal in his Vatican II reforms.)
Why was Bernardin allowed in to the Bishops, then in to the archBishops in the Reagan era, then into the Cardinals, though not conservative? Maybe as Bernardin had a gift for talking to everyone?
The person the Democrats chose to respond to Trump's speech Mar 4 would be in Bernardin's vein.
The Klan was still active in SC when Bernardin grew up there. The Klan was violently racist and anti-Semitic and anti-labor union, with anti-Catholic "another part of the same thing".
In the weeks after MLK died, Bernardin, for some time in Atlanta, was sent north, to Cincinnati and Chicago.
One biography of him is at the Digitalcommons of cbsSJU.edu (Jesuit place, but he was Franciscan). It's in an issue of "The Journal of Social Encounters", in which William Droel of Chicago reviewed a book, "Joseph Bernardin: Seeking Common Ground" (pub. 2016, by Stephen Millies, of Collegeville, Minn.)
He was selected/appointed as secretary to the Council of US Bishops. In 1983, in Chicago, Bernardin headed a committee on War and Peace. He'd insisted on diverse members from the clergy hierarchy. They ranged, from military, to Pax Christi. They interviewed experts and lay people.
Their report was criticized by public officials of the Reagan years(1981 to 1989) and by what Droel called "neo-conservative Catholics" (future MAGA?).
Bernardin eventually expanded the committee's War and Peace conclusions into his seamless garment theology. (MAGA wears just one sleeve of Christianity, tearing the rest of the Christian garment into shreds?)
Side note-Bernardin discussed the sex abuse crisis, did not stick his head in the sand. Some sociologists say the crisis was a consequence of a shortage of priests, places not willing to fire priests based on rumor and gossip when there was a shortage. (Studies of incest point out "private places" as fostering that problem inside families.. Churches that had no private spots inside had less trouble, as anybody could walk through, at any time.)
Protestants have had clergy affairs with females in the congregations at times of clergy shortages. Another thing-- The Catholics and the Boy Scouts kept records of accusations, while many Protestants did not. (No records is not the same as sinless.)
Seriously, the world is so split now that if a liberal Pope is chosen, there could actually be a split in the Church, with all the Rad Trads, racists and haters starting their own MAGA America First Catholic Church, where a Scandanavian suntanned blue eyed Jesus is a venture capitalist in an Armani Suit who dispenses grace dividends on the rich and frowns upon the lazy poor.
In Phoenix, our Catholic Deacon gave a homily about feeding, clothing, and housing the refugees at the Arizona border, since this is what Jesus commands of us. People stood up and walked out of the Church. This is the state of spiritual rot in this country. People want to be seen as good Catholics who attend Mass, but how dare anyone demand that they act like Jesus!
72 years old, and actually believe that my Catholic baptism and confirmation has put 2 marks on my soul of spiritual protection. Maybe that is why I find MAGA inexplicable to me. While I find some of the Catholic dogma idiotic in the 21st century (the ban on any form of birth control, the obsession against gay people), it is still my spiritual home. Thank you for this wonderful discussion. I am a full time caregiver for someone with Alzheimers, Parkinsons, COPD and AFIB. If not for the Catholic Charity known as FSL, I would be on my own (they provide counseling for caregivers and day care for patients).
thank for your three posts above, William
Good discussion and overview on the attacks on Catholic Charities.
But we need to stop speaking of Christian Nationalism (CN) as a form of Christianity. First, the dominant characteristic is its racism rather than either Christianity or nationalism. It is not our nation above all other nations but our white male nation above all others. Can one think about CN without thinking about race and who is excluded? Is there an element of black CN or female led CN that comes to mind or that's showing itself (although some women are CN adherents).
If one looks at immigration is there a major CN stance against white Scandinavians or even other white Europeans?
If one looks at how the actions play out, the attacks are more against anyone who is not white male more than not American. It is certainly anti-Islamic (not sure about how Buddhists or Hindus, e.g, fit in ), anti-white liberals and in many ways anti-women. Because of christian evangelicals' pro-Israel stance it would seem that anti-semitism would be only a small aspect of CN but attacks on Jews are increasing. And, theoretically even the evangelical views of Israel are that the prophecy is that at the second coming will be in Israel, and then all will become saved Christians or be damned and Judaism will disappear.
So it is a movement made up almost solely of christians but CN is far more a group that defines itself by race and even gender than by christianity.
Good point form Richard Yoast above:
"we need to stop speaking of Christian Nationalism (CN) as a form of Christianity. First, the dominant characteristic is its racism rather than either Christianity or nationalism. It is not our nation above all other nations but our white male nation above all others"
Thank you, JVL, for helping restore my Catholicism. I have had to reduce my charitable contributions as I’ve aged and been retired - but I’ve stuck with Catholic Charities mainly because of its work at the US-Mex. border, and its work feeding the poor. I am happy to continue to support CC and, by extension, my very favorite Pope of all time, Pope Francis. I mourn in advance the world’s loss of this gracious, loving religious leader whom we are likely never to see again (at least in the next several generations). You are loved in our house, JVL. Again, thank you.
He lost all credibility for me at that moment. Still lying?
Is that “Catholic Speak”?
Please do not use “child abuse” for the truth - child sex abuse. Purposely word choice ?
YAY Pope! He’s not staying within past norms of communication- so glad he’s acting like it’s 2025 👍🏻
Idea!
Trump has been arguing to teach the Bible in school. Someone needs to put together a campaign that takes all the passages from the Bible that support DEI and argue in support of Trump's push and that it's a pro DEI platform he is supporting.
Can't wait to see how fast they start trying to ban the Bible
Please continue to have Ed or JD on occasionally in this format. I work for a Catholic archdiocese and read the Pillar regularly for news in my field. They are straight shooters and your conversation was valuable for many listeners. As you suggested in conversation, most Catholics who consider themselves faithful simply don’t know actual Catholic Social Teaching…or they refuse to assent to it.
Catholic Church isn't collapsing in America at all. It's the largest denomination in America by far (71M people. The Southern Baptists are #2 at 13M)
Yes changing but by no means is it collapsing. Mainline Protestantism is collapsing, sadly
One example: https://www.graphsaboutreligion.com/p/the-state-of-the-evangelical-lutheran
Ken Paxton is bigoted hate-filled criminal scumbag.
His behavior is literally grits weasel- that’s what my phone came up with 🤣
I meant to say grotesque
Lapsed Catholic here.. I've always believed the church became more conservative as the moderates, like my family, stopped participating amid the scandal and lack of understanding by the priests about modern challenges like divorce and women's health
It's not "shifting" as much as "shrinking", so the voices that were drowned out before are now the main message